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Commentary:The Nazi past and modern Europe
By Robin Shepherd
UNITED PRESS INTERNATIONAL
Bonn, Germany, Sep. 14 (UPI) -- Gratuitous anti-Germanism is an all
too pervasive pastime in modern Europe, and it shows few signs of
dissipating.
From the inane chanting of "Two World Wars and One World Cup" by
England's marauding armies of soccer hooligans to Italian Prime
Minister Silvio Berlusconi's contemptible comparison last year of a
German politician with a Nazi concentration camp guard, it demeans and
disgraces those who indulge in it. Worse, in its implicit denial of
the unprecedented success of the German nation's attempts to deal with
the darkest period of its history, it sends a broader message that
repair and reconciliation are unworthy of recognition. It trivializes
war and Holocaust, reducing their significance to the level of the
jibe, proffered to the Neanderthal crowd to buy a moment of ignorant
applause.
This hardly helps then when we come to discuss the one outstanding
issue from World War II that really is both significant and enduring
and which, outside academic circles, neither Germany nor the wider
Europe has yet seriously addressed.
Consider, with this in mind, some recent events in Poland and Germany.
Last week, the Polish parliament passed a resolution - 328 in favor,
one abstention and none against - calling on the government to seek
further reparations from Germany for the carnage inflicted on Poland
World War II. It also proclaimed that Poland had "no financial
obligations whatsoever" to Germany for losses of life and property
suffered by ethnic Germans expelled at the end of that war. That key
clause in the resolution, the clause that explains why it was passed
in the first place, was itself a response to events taking place
across the border in Germany.
In that country a small organization called the Prussia Claims Society
is poised to seek compensation in European courts for property lost by
the 12.5 million ethnic Germans and their descendents who were
expelled from central and eastern Europe at the end of the war. The
group, and others that support its aims, has little support in
Germany, and it is opposed by the German government. Nonetheless,
public and political opposition inside Germany will not be enough to
stop it pushing its claims in the courts.
The scale of the mass expulsions of Germans after the end of the World
War II, mainly from Poland and the former Czechoslovakia, is little
known in Europe. Who, after all, has been much interested in the
sufferings of the people who started the war in the first place? If a
third of the population of the present-day Czech Republic, for
example, was expelled after the war en masse (3 million people in
all), then was it not also true that those ethnic Germans collaborated
with and exalted in the Nazi regime?
The trouble is that that charge of collective guilt, in normal
circumstances, would not stand up in a 21st century European court.
"What," a plausibly imagined plaintiff might retort, "about my family?
Uncle Fritz fought the Nazis in the resistance. Cousin Hans spied for
the British. Father and Mother were shot by the Gestapo. And yet our
family was expelled and expropriated as surely as those who really had
collaborated. Keep the property of the Nazis. But justice demands I
get mine back."
"In any case," their lawyers might add, "since when has national or
ethnic affiliation been an acceptable basis for a just outcome in a
modern court of law?"
Phrased in that way, Europe's judges are not going to find an easy
answer. Solutions, of course, will be found. The stakes are too high
to allow such claims to succeed. Current legislation could be
interpreted (possibly under political pressure) as suggesting the
court claims in themselves amount to a form of subversion or threaten
to incite national hatred - which they most certainly would. Statutes
of limitations could be judged to have expired. In short, a whole host
of legal and not so legal trickery can and probably will be employed
to stop the claims in their tracks. The moral dilemma, however, will
remain.
My own view on all this is that that dilemma is as acute as one wants
it to be. It is true that innocent Germans -- hundreds of thousands of
them, probably -- suffered greatly at the end of the war. But to keep
perspective we have to part company, at least for a while, with our
modern, individualist conception of law and justice if we are not to
make the mistake of reading the expectations of the present into the
realities of the past.
War, after all, is a collectivist enterprise. Nations fight nations,
and individuals are part of the struggle whether they like it or not.
This is especially true in an era of "total war," of which the events
in Europe in the 1930s and 1940s comprised modern history's clearest
and most awful example. The ethnic Germans of central and eastern
Europe can, in some cases, claim to have been among total war's
innocent victims. But many millions more suffered a far worse fate and
are in no position to be compensated as a result.
The hard fact is that the presence of millions of ethnic Germans
across central and eastern Europe in the first half of the last
century was deemed, probably correctly, incompatible with stability,
peace and therefore the broader context in which human rights in
Europe could prevail. The consolidation of the German people inside
clearly defined borders was a pre-condition for the rebirth of a
continent based, eventually at least, on democracy, national
reconciliation and the rule of law. It is not a conclusion that will
suit those who yearn for simple answers to complicated problems, or
who cannot live in a world without straight lines and sharp edges. Nor
will it suit the German expellees and their descendents.
But if the rights we take for granted today have in some part been
bought at the expense of the rights of other people in the past, then
that is a contradiction that we in Europe will all have to live with.
-0-
Robin Shepherd is an adjunct fellow of the Center for Strategic and
International Studies. His column appears weekly.
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The hard fact is that the presence of millions of ethnic Germans
across central and eastern Europe in the first half of the last
century was deemed, probably correctly, incompatible with stability,
peace and therefore the broader context in which human rights in
Europe could prevail. The consolidation of the German people inside
clearly defined borders was a pre-condition for the rebirth of a
continent based, eventually at least, on democracy, national
reconciliation and the rule of law. It is not a conclusion that will
suit those who yearn for simple answers to complicated problems, or
who cannot live in a world without straight lines and sharp edges. Nor
will it suit the German expellees and their descendents.
Replace German with "Jew" and you have the exact mentality of the
Nazis. I suppose that makes Robin Shepard a nazi?
But if the rights we take for granted today have in some part been
bought at the expense of the rights of other people in the past, then
that is a contradiction that we in Europe will all have to live with.
That is exactly the Nazi ideology, injustice for some so that the
whole can experience justice. The author of this article is a complete
and total hypocrite.
History repeats itself, no side is free of guilt. One can only believe
one side to have the moral high ground by believing the propaganda it
produces.
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What make you think so it was the Jews who railroaded America in joining
world war one just study the balfour agreement. Without this Jewish
corruption then there would have not been a second world war. As a
matter of fact Hitler would have never been elected.
Kurt Knoll.
"Preservingourhistory" <preservingourhistory@anonymous.to> wrote in
message news:d986ceeb.0409150702.11b1a822@posting.google.com...
The hard fact is that the presence of millions of ethnic Germans
across central and eastern Europe in the first half of the last
century was deemed, probably correctly, incompatible with stability,
peace and therefore the broader context in which human rights in
Europe could prevail. The consolidation of the German people inside
clearly defined borders was a pre-condition for the rebirth of a
continent based, eventually at least, on democracy, national
reconciliation and the rule of law. It is not a conclusion that will
suit those who yearn for simple answers to complicated problems, or
who cannot live in a world without straight lines and sharp edges.
Nor
will it suit the German expellees and their descendents.
Replace German with "Jew" and you have the exact mentality of the
Nazis. I suppose that makes Robin Shepard a nazi?
That is exactly the Nazi ideology, injustice for some so that the
whole can experience justice. The author of this article is a complete
and total hypocrite.
History repeats itself, no side is free of guilt. One can only believe
one side to have the moral high ground by believing the propaganda it
produces.
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COMPLETE NONSENSE!
Utter nonsense.
You have very little knowledge of history.
Joel M. Eichen
On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 16:16:44 GMT, "Kurt Knoll" <menachem2@monarch.net>
wrote:
What make you think so it was the Jews who railroaded America in joining world war one just study the balfour agreement. Without this Jewish corruption then there would have not been a second world war. As a matter of fact Hitler would have never been elected. Kurt Knoll. "Preservingourhistory" <preservingourhistory@anonymous.to> wrote in message news:d986ceeb.0409150702.11b1a822@posting.google.com... The hard fact is that the presence of millions of ethnic Germans across central and eastern Europe in the first half of the last century was deemed, probably correctly, incompatible with stability, peace and therefore the broader context in which human rights in Europe could prevail. The consolidation of the German people inside clearly defined borders was a pre-condition for the rebirth of a continent based, eventually at least, on democracy, national reconciliation and the rule of law. It is not a conclusion that will suit those who yearn for simple answers to complicated problems, or who cannot live in a world without straight lines and sharp edges. Nor will it suit the German expellees and their descendents. |
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Well have you read the Balfour agreement then tell me what it is all
about.
Kurt Knoll.
COMPLETE NONSENSE!
Utter nonsense.
You have very little knowledge of history.
Joel M. Eichen
On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 16:16:44 GMT, "Kurt Knoll" <menachem2@monarch.net>
wrote:
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What make you think so it was the Jews who railroaded America in joining
world war one just study the balfour agreement. Without this Jewish
corruption then there would have not been a second world war. As a
matter of fact Hitler would have never been elected.
Kurt Knoll.
COMPLETE NONSENSE!
Utter nonsense.
You have very little knowledge of history.
Joel M. Eichen
On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 16:16:44 GMT, "Kurt Knoll" <menachem2@monarch.net>
wrote:
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preservingourhistory@anonymous.to (Preservingourhistory) wrote in message news:<d986ceeb.0409150702.11b1a822@posting.google.com>...
The hard fact is that the presence of millions of ethnic Germans
across central and eastern Europe in the first half of the last
century was deemed, probably correctly, incompatible with stability,
peace and therefore the broader context in which human rights in
Europe could prevail. The consolidation of the German people inside
clearly defined borders was a pre-condition for the rebirth of a
continent based, eventually at least, on democracy, national
reconciliation and the rule of law. It is not a conclusion that will
suit those who yearn for simple answers to complicated problems, or
who cannot live in a world without straight lines and sharp edges. Nor
will it suit the German expellees and their descendents.
Replace German with "Jew" and you have the exact mentality of the
Nazis. I suppose that makes Robin Shepard a nazi?
That is exactly the Nazi ideology, injustice for some so that the
whole can experience justice. The author of this article is a complete
and total hypocrite.
History repeats itself, no side is free of guilt. One can only believe
one side to have the moral high ground by believing the propaganda it
produces.
I think his point was that present day individuals can not expect to
be indemnified for historical wrongs. And I think that separates him
from both the Nazis and the political correctness crowd.
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Steve Dufour wrote:
Commentary:The Nazi past and modern Europe
Germans who had lived on that East Prussian land were tortured
mercilessly by their cowardly Polish neighbors. Those who tried to leave
were sent to the bottom of the Baltic by "brave Russian Sub commanders"
ie "Wilhelm Gustloff". Germany has never spied on us since they have
been our allies, (Like Israel)Reinhard Gehlen "made" our postwar CIA. We
had no eastern contacts. We owe them bigtime. It was German youngsters
who braved Vopo bullets to tear down the wall. (Not Ronnie Reagan) As
far as the hohocaust, dont even get me started on that nonsense. Theyve
been paid handsomely for the greatest scam of all time.
Personally I think its probably impractival to even mess with the
Prussian problem, but the Poles started it. The reaction by the Germans
was just to remind the POlacks that they are the poor neighbors. ANd
they werent really allt that innocent in the 30s, I seem to remember a
guy named Pilsudski who did everything Hitler did, but just didnt have
the chutzbah or the ability of the German people.
The re,maining peice of USSR that contains Konigsberg should be ceded to
Germany, and the Russians should clear out.
Will there ever come a time when Germany will ease being the whipping
boy for the ills of the world.
Now that ist been found that our soldiers are capable of torturing
prisoners, and executing innocent civilians. I wont even start about
Dresden or Hamburg. How is that any differnet from any Holocasust. You
know its funny, I never heard so much about the holocaust until after
ommunism died down. In fact I nevr heard that word used exclusively to
describe Jewish travails until the late 70s. Thanks to the efforts of Wm
Styron and his mewling Sophies Choice. AT least she had a choie. Did
half a million people in Dresden have a choice?
Fuck the POlacks. They chose the wrong side. Their punishment for
backing Stalin.
You should also read about the sterling behavior of the good citizens of
Prague to their Volksdeutsch neighbors at the end of the war. Te river
ran red with the blood of children from the German schools. Had it not
been for Vlassov and his Russian Troops(German allies)things would have
been wrse. But we turned this good anti communist over to Stalin. There
is also the matter a book called "Other LOsses" which mentions the
deaths of quite a few German POWs by brave Amerian guards who were too
late for the war, but still brave enough to kill. My father was in
Germany till 48, a former BAR gunner with the 90th Inf. He told me of
this. He also told me of Dachau which he figured was a scam. He saw it
again in 65, LOtta construction since then haha. WHoever wins the war
gets to tell the stories. If Germany had won, we would have been accused
of Genocide, ala Morgenthau. What else would you call it?
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Just look at it this way. 15 millions ethnic Germans have been expelled
from the eastern countries 1.5 millions perished. What crime did they
commit other than having German ancestry. The Jews have made the
holocaust into a business venture jet the Germans have no right to
launch their own investigation everyone is forced to believe no matter
how many more fabrication the do come out with. Not only are this these
refugees are not even allowed to publish their site of these events
because for the Jews it would mean denying the holocaust.
Kurt Knoll.
Steve Dufour wrote:
Germans who had lived on that East Prussian land were tortured
mercilessly by their cowardly Polish neighbors. Those who tried to
leave
were sent to the bottom of the Baltic by "brave Russian Sub
commanders"
ie "Wilhelm Gustloff". Germany has never spied on us since they have
been our allies, (Like Israel)Reinhard Gehlen "made" our postwar CIA.
We
had no eastern contacts. We owe them bigtime. It was German youngsters
who braved Vopo bullets to tear down the wall. (Not Ronnie Reagan) As
far as the hohocaust, dont even get me started on that nonsense.
Theyve
been paid handsomely for the greatest scam of all time.
Personally I think its probably impractival to even mess with the
Prussian problem, but the Poles started it. The reaction by the
Germans
was just to remind the POlacks that they are the poor neighbors. ANd
they werent really allt that innocent in the 30s, I seem to remember a
guy named Pilsudski who did everything Hitler did, but just didnt have
the chutzbah or the ability of the German people.
The re,maining peice of USSR that contains Konigsberg should be ceded
to
Germany, and the Russians should clear out.
Will there ever come a time when Germany will ease being the whipping
boy for the ills of the world.
Now that ist been found that our soldiers are capable of torturing
prisoners, and executing innocent civilians. I wont even start about
Dresden or Hamburg. How is that any differnet from any Holocasust. You
know its funny, I never heard so much about the holocaust until after
ommunism died down. In fact I nevr heard that word used exclusively to
describe Jewish travails until the late 70s. Thanks to the efforts of
Wm
Styron and his mewling Sophies Choice. AT least she had a choie. Did
half a million people in Dresden have a choice?
Fuck the POlacks. They chose the wrong side. Their punishment for
backing Stalin.
You should also read about the sterling behavior of the good citizens
of
Prague to their Volksdeutsch neighbors at the end of the war. Te river
ran red with the blood of children from the German schools. Had it
not
been for Vlassov and his Russian Troops(German allies)things would
have
been wrse. But we turned this good anti communist over to Stalin.
There
is also the matter a book called "Other LOsses" which mentions the
deaths of quite a few German POWs by brave Amerian guards who were too
late for the war, but still brave enough to kill. My father was in
Germany till 48, a former BAR gunner with the 90th Inf. He told me of
this. He also told me of Dachau which he figured was a scam. He saw it
again in 65, LOtta construction since then haha. WHoever wins the war
gets to tell the stories. If Germany had won, we would have been
accused
of Genocide, ala Morgenthau. What else would you call it?
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"Kurt Knoll" <menachem2@monarch.net> wrote in message news:<iPT2d.459106$gE.426651@pd7tw3no>...
Just look at it this way. 15 millions ethnic Germans have been expelled
from the eastern countries 1.5 millions perished. What crime did they
commit other than having German ancestry.
The crime of starting a war and murdering millions of people?
At the end of WWII Germans finally got to taste some of the treatment
they were administrating left and right to other nations before.
Mike Av
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ElKabong <hingerty@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<MzO2d.1511$Ii2.96@trnddc09>...
Steve Dufour wrote:
Germans who had lived on that East Prussian land were tortured
mercilessly by their cowardly Polish neighbors.
When exactly?
Those who tried to leave
were sent to the bottom of the Baltic by "brave Russian Sub commanders"
ie "Wilhelm Gustloff". Germany has never spied on us since they have
been our allies, (Like Israel)Reinhard Gehlen "made" our postwar CIA. We
had no eastern contacts. We owe them bigtime. It was German youngsters
who braved Vopo bullets to tear down the wall. (Not Ronnie Reagan) As
far as the hohocaust, dont even get me started on that nonsense. Theyve
been paid handsomely for the greatest scam of all time.
Personally I think its probably impractival to even mess with the
Prussian problem, but the Poles started it.
Poles started what?
The reaction by the Germans
was just to remind the POlacks that they are the poor neighbors. ANd
they werent really allt that innocent in the 30s, I seem to remember a
guy named Pilsudski who did everything Hitler did,
Except mass murder. It's quite a difference for some people.
Pilsudzki was indeed similiar to Hitler,because he also fought a war
against the Soviets, but unlike Hitler, he managed to win.
http://onwar.com/aced/nation/pat/poland/fussrpoland1919.htm
but just didnt have
the chutzbah or the ability of the German people.
Uhmmm... the excellent chutzpah/ability of German people who started a
war, killed millions of other people, died in millions themselves and
got thousands (millions?) of their women raped by the Red Army
soldiers.
Germans were great soldiers and weapon producers, but in the end they
were not only villains but most of all: fools, fools who started a
great disaster both for themselves and for other nations.
The re,maining peice of USSR that contains Konigsberg should be ceded to
Germany, and the Russians should clear out.
Will there ever come a time when Germany will ease being the whipping
boy for the ills of the world.
Now that ist been found that our soldiers are capable of torturing
prisoners, and executing innocent civilians. I wont even start about
Dresden or Hamburg. How is that any differnet from any Holocasust. You
know its funny, I never heard so much about the holocaust until after
ommunism died down. In fact I nevr heard that word used exclusively to
describe Jewish travails until the late 70s. Thanks to the efforts of Wm
Styron and his mewling Sophies Choice. AT least she had a choie. Did
half a million people in Dresden have a choice?
Yes,like all Germans, they did- they could've tried to oppose Hitler
before the war.
Fuck the POlacks. They chose the wrong side.
Chose the wrong side when?
Their punishment for
backing Stalin.
Backing Stalin when?
Hitler and Stalin attacked Poland together in the September of 1939
(invasion dates: 1st and 17th)- while the majority of Polish troops
fought Germans in the west, some fought the Soviets. Later during the
war, the Polish goverment never made a deal with Stalin... the
post-war goverment of Poland was not a democratically chosen
representation of Polish people, but a bunch of Soviets agents imposed
by one of the invaders from Sept 1939.
[...]
Mike Av
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The Germans kept accurate record of all the events that took place in
world war 2 so did the allied. Is there a place where Germans are
allowed to see both sides of the conflict or can they only see what they
are allowed to see.
Kurt Knoll.
"Kurt Knoll" <menachem2@monarch.net> wrote in message
news:<iPT2d.459106$gE.426651@pd7tw3no>...
Just look at it this way. 15 millions ethnic Germans have been
expelled
from the eastern countries 1.5 millions perished. What crime did
they
commit other than having German ancestry.
The crime of starting a war and murdering millions of people?
At the end of WWII Germans finally got to taste some of the treatment
they were administrating left and right to other nations before.
Mike Av
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Read the book a terrible revenge by Alfred Maurice de Zayas ISBN
0-312-12159-8 that is if you have brain enough to read.
Kurt Knoll.
ElKabong <hingerty@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:<MzO2d.1511$Ii2.96@trnddc09>...
Steve Dufour wrote:
Commentary:The Nazi past and modern Europe
Germans who had lived on that East Prussian land were tortured
mercilessly by their cowardly Polish neighbors.
When exactly?
Poles started what?
Except mass murder. It's quite a difference for some people.
Pilsudzki was indeed similiar to Hitler,because he also fought a war
against the Soviets, but unlike Hitler, he managed to win.
http://onwar.com/aced/nation/pat/poland/fussrpoland1919.htm
Uhmmm... the excellent chutzpah/ability of German people who started a
war, killed millions of other people, died in millions themselves and
got thousands (millions?) of their women raped by the Red Army
soldiers.
Germans were great soldiers and weapon producers, but in the end they
were not only villains but most of all: fools, fools who started a
great disaster both for themselves and for other nations.
Yes,like all Germans, they did- they could've tried to oppose Hitler
before the war.
Chose the wrong side when?
Backing Stalin when?
Hitler and Stalin attacked Poland together in the September of 1939
(invasion dates: 1st and 17th)- while the majority of Polish troops
fought Germans in the west, some fought the Soviets. Later during the
war, the Polish goverment never made a deal with Stalin... the
post-war goverment of Poland was not a democratically chosen
representation of Polish people, but a bunch of Soviets agents imposed
by one of the invaders from Sept 1939.
Mike Av
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"Kurt Knoll" <menachem2@monarch.net> wrote in message news:<V9h3d.52714$%S.25408@pd7tw2no>...
Read the book a terrible revenge by Alfred Maurice de Zayas ISBN
0-312-12159-8 that is if you have brain enough to read.
Kurt Knoll.
First of all, you misunderstood me.
When I wrote:
Germans who had lived on that East Prussian land were tortured
mercilessly by their cowardly Polish neighbors.
When exactly?
It was not because I do not know or wish to know that thing like that
did happen, but I wanted "ElKabong" to tell me WHEN did it happen and
to point out that this was only a natural consequence of German
actions, at most a mirror-like reflection of that what the Germans did
to Poles before that, without provocation.
I do know that after the war Germans were killed, robbed, raped and
expelled by Poles and Soviets, among others. I do also know however
that when it started, the Germans had millions of murdered Polish
civilians, not counting millions of victims of other nationalities and
this cannot be ignored when discussing the issue.
Tell me, what did the Poles do to Germans as revenge what have't been
previously done by Germans to the Poles without any provocation?
Personally I think that the truth about the fate of Germans should be
told,but I also think that at all times it need to be said that this
was effectively what they've asked for by their actions.
What is very insulting to me as a Pole are the attempts to portray
German losses in WWII in the same moral light as Polish losses. IMO
these are often not simply honest attemps to speak the truth about the
suffering of Germans, but also attempts to distort the truth and to
obscure the question of German responsibility for their crimes.
Mike Av
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"Kurt Knoll" <menachem2@monarch.net> wrote in message news:<f7h3d.52710$%S.17244@pd7tw2no>...
The Germans kept accurate record of all the events that took place in
world war 2 so did the allied. Is there a place where Germans are
allowed to see both sides of the conflict or can they only see what they
are allowed to see.
Kurt Knoll.
Personally I'm not a fan of lying and distorting history,so I think
that the truth about murdered, raped, robbed and expelled Germans
should be told.
However, I also think that Germans learning this truth should also
learn about how and why it came to this and about previous actions of
Germans in Poland and other countries.
The question is: what do you want? Simply to let the truth be known,
or to obscure the question of German guilt for the horrors of WWII and
to present Germans as victims?
BTW are you a German living in Germany? If so, then tell me: what is
the level of historical awareness among Germans about the crimes
commited by Germans against Poles in 1939-1945? Do you/other Germans
know the scale and kinds of crimes commited?
Mike Av
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There are many versions about world War II and how it was started. The
best way to study it is too take a good look about the Balfour agreement
where the Jews did ply the role of traitors against Germany as long they
can get Palestine as their homeland. All the books about the Versailles
peace treaty and the controversy around it are banned in Germany since
1945. The Germans are not allowed to be informed to read about it or
find out about it.
Kurt Knoll.
"Kurt Knoll" <menachem2@monarch.net> wrote in message
news:<f7h3d.52710$%S.17244@pd7tw2no>...
The Germans kept accurate record of all the events that took place
in
world war 2 so did the allied. Is there a place where Germans are
allowed to see both sides of the conflict or can they only see what
they
are allowed to see.
Kurt Knoll.
Personally I'm not a fan of lying and distorting history,so I think
that the truth about murdered, raped, robbed and expelled Germans
should be told.
However, I also think that Germans learning this truth should also
learn about how and why it came to this and about previous actions of
Germans in Poland and other countries.
The question is: what do you want? Simply to let the truth be known,
or to obscure the question of German guilt for the horrors of WWII and
to present Germans as victims?
BTW are you a German living in Germany? If so, then tell me: what is
the level of historical awareness among Germans about the crimes
commited by Germans against Poles in 1939-1945? Do you/other Germans
know the scale and kinds of crimes commited?
Mike Av
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After 1918 part the sudetenland was given do the Czechs another part of
Germany was given to the poles. Many time the ethnic Germans in both of
this countries have been mistreated and misused. Many complained wars
send to the league of nations with no avail. Wars do not start out of
nothing wars are manipulated. Your example of today is Iraqi.
Kurt Knoll.
"Kurt Knoll" <menachem2@monarch.net> wrote in message
news:<V9h3d.52714$%S.25408@pd7tw2no>...
Read the book a terrible revenge by Alfred Maurice de Zayas ISBN
0-312-12159-8 that is if you have brain enough to read.
Kurt Knoll.
First of all, you misunderstood me.
When I wrote:
Germans who had lived on that East Prussian land were tortured
mercilessly by their cowardly Polish neighbors.
It was not because I do not know or wish to know that thing like that
did happen, but I wanted "ElKabong" to tell me WHEN did it happen and
to point out that this was only a natural consequence of German
actions, at most a mirror-like reflection of that what the Germans did
to Poles before that, without provocation.
I do know that after the war Germans were killed, robbed, raped and
expelled by Poles and Soviets, among others. I do also know however
that when it started, the Germans had millions of murdered Polish
civilians, not counting millions of victims of other nationalities and
this cannot be ignored when discussing the issue.
Tell me, what did the Poles do to Germans as revenge what have't been
previously done by Germans to the Poles without any provocation?
Personally I think that the truth about the fate of Germans should be
told,but I also think that at all times it need to be said that this
was effectively what they've asked for by their actions.
What is very insulting to me as a Pole are the attempts to portray
German losses in WWII in the same moral light as Polish losses. IMO
these are often not simply honest attemps to speak the truth about the
suffering of Germans, but also attempts to distort the truth and to
obscure the question of German responsibility for their crimes.
Mike Av
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Kurt Knoll wrote:
After 1918 part the sudetenland was given do the Czechs another part of
Germany was given to the poles. Many time the ethnic Germans in both of
this countries have been mistreated and misused. Many complained wars
send to the league of nations with no avail. Wars do not start out of
nothing wars are manipulated. Your example of today is Iraqi.
Kurt Knoll.
=
news:<V9h3d.52714$%S.25408@pd7tw2no>...
Read the book a terrible revenge by Alfred Maurice de Zayas ISBN
0-312-12159-8 that is if you have brain enough to read.
Kurt Knoll.
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Here is one for you. After the break up of the sowjet block and east
Germany it was the Jews in America that insistent the Germans should not
get their land back. Part of the condition was the Germans have to give
up their right to get their land back, But if they should not agree to
it they must be denied the right to reunite. The reason the Jewish loopy
gave was that the Germans could get to strong. Here we have it Germany
lost the war against Great Britain France and Russia but it is the Jews
who make the final decisions. My question to you now is who controls
America.
Kurt Knoll.
==
Kurt Knoll wrote:
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On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 20:04:50 GMT, "Kurt Knoll" <menachem2@monarch.net>
wrote:
Here is one for you. After the break up of the sowjet block and east
Germany it was the Jews in America that insistent the Germans should not
get their land back.
YUP, that'll teach ya ......
Part of the condition was the Germans have to give
up their right to get their land back, But if they should not agree to
it they must be denied the right to reunite. The reason the Jewish loopy
gave was that the Germans could get to strong. Here we have it Germany
lost the war against Great Britain France and Russia but it is the Jews
who make the final decisions. My question to you now is who controls
America.
Kurt Knoll.
==
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"Kurt Knoll" <menachem2@monarch.net> wrote in message news:<oaD3d.58910$%S.45494@pd7tw2no>...
There are many versions about world War II and how it was started.
Sure, they are many version about everything- some people believe that
Earth is flat for example.
My version is that Germany attacked Poland without provocation. What's
yours?
The
best way to study it is too take a good look about the Balfour agreement
where the Jews did ply the role of traitors against Germany as long they
can get Palestine as their homeland.
What does that have to do with attacking Poland?
All the books about the Versailles
peace treaty and the controversy around it are banned in Germany since
1945. The Germans are not allowed to be informed to read about it or
find out about it.
Which books precisly are banned?
Mike Av
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"Kurt Knoll" <menachem2@monarch.net> wrote in message news:<mfD3d.478077$gE.176834@pd7tw3no>...
After 1918 part the sudetenland was given do the Czechs another part of
Germany was given to the poles.
Wrong. No part of Germany was given to Poland. In fact it was the
opposite- parts of Poland stayed in Germany: look at any map of Poland
from before the partitions.
Many time the ethnic Germans in both of
this countries have been mistreated and misused.
How and when exactly? Any proof? Most likely it's just something
Hitler's propaganda specialists devised, like the "Polish Attack" on
the radiostation in Gliwice.
Many complained wars
send to the league of nations with no avail. Wars do not start out of
nothing wars are manipulated. Your example of today is Iraqi.
Of course wars do not start from nothing, nothing does start from
nothing. In case of WWII it was mostly case of German false pride and
racism which made Germans think it's ok to invade and slaughter other
nations.
Mike Av
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ElKabong <nospam@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<03E3d.5295$je.2048@trnddc04>...
[...]
One book that comes to mind is "Flight in Winter". And the books of
Gunter Grass tell a lot about the privations of the
Germans,Masurians,Pomeranians and Kasubians, all of who were the native
residents since the days of the Hansa. The Teutonic Knights "made" that
region. Konigsberg, Marienburg,Danzig(NOT GDANSK) are all Germanic
cities. It is silly to call them anything else. The Poles fought bravely
during their short lived war, and I wont take anything away from them
there. But my feeling is this(and it goes for Germans Iraqis Russians
and Poles......when the armistice is signed..you go the @$#* home. Or
wherever. You do not pick up a weapon. If you are foolish or misquided
enuff to do so..your punishment is death.
A partisan is a criminal.
In
most cases they bullied the natve population and preyed on them, those
of the left and the right.
Many Poles were execuated for terrorism during the war. They had no dog
in the fight. They had surrendered.
It's not about killing partisans. It's about killing non-combatant
civilian population, including women and children. Germans killed many
people who were not partisans.
Also as far as being a criminal is concerned:
1) Germans falsly accussed Poland of attacking first (Gliwice
radiostation attack)
2) The Germans did NOT declare war before attacking.
3) They shot Polish POWS when those were already disarmed
As you see, Germans commited many actions of criminal nature.
The question which I'd like to have answered is: WHY do you justify
the Germans and accuse Poles?
If they had a beef with anybody it
should have been France. For leaving them in the lurch.
Yes, the French were cowards who did't even fight for their capitol.
Germany beat
them fair and square, and then asked fortheir land back, with interest..
What land?
They should have gave them the corridor.
It was theirs to begin with.
It was't. You've must've read too much Nazi propaganda about that.
I
mean hell there wasnt even no Poland before WW1.
Wrong. Poland has a history as a state from as early as 10th century
and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was the largest country in
Europe around 16th century.
There was no Polish state from late 18th century to early 20th
century, due to partitions of Poland - basicly invasion of 3 empires
(Russia, Germany,Austria).
The best history I ever
read about Poland was Micheners "Poland". It showed that Poland was a
mixed up patchwork of rich magnates preying on the poor peasants.
Other books would show you that Poland was the most tolerant country
of the region and in many ways more advanced than it's neighbours.
The
best thing ever happened to them was Frederick the Great stepped in and
sorted out the mess.
He invaded and enslaved Polish people... and now some people (you?)
incorrectly claim the land he took and which was't returned to us in
1918 as German.
But getting back to present day, what galls me..Poland helped themselves
to a lotta German land.
No, Poland took no German land.
Thats why I dont think they have ever been able
to sign a peace treaty. If Russia took land from Poland that doesnt
justify Poland taking land from Germany and then terrorizing the
inhabitants with Stalin and the red army so that they would haul ass and
not look back.
Actually we never terrorised you with Stalin and red army: Stalin and
red army terrorised German and Pole alike these days. For example read
about the the Polish partisans ('criminals' to you) loyal to the legal
(democratic) goverment of Poland who waged homewar against Stalin's
men, but lost.
At this point you have demonstrated many times complete lack of
knowledge of the subject.
They never would have said a word, but Poland wants
blood.
???
Hell theyre doing em' a favor by letting them in NATO and the
Common Market which are both German dominated "clubs".
NATO is first of all USA-dominated and it's by USA's will that Poland
got in.
As for European Union ("Common Market") -this step is beneficial for
Germany as well, not only Poland.
They had nothing
to do with the "economic miracle" so why should they pull up a chair
now? They did their level best to destroy my country(America).
???
Listen, I don't know how to convince you but listen to this, I say
this honestly and without malice: you know nearly NOTHING about the
things you are speaking about.
Poles did't EVER do anything to destroy America, sooner the opposite.
Poland is the most pro-American country in Europe. In fact, as we
speak, there is a Polish contingent in Iraq, helping the US Army in
maintaining stability.
They were
the enemy for 60 years...not 5.
? We never were a enemy: we were enslaved against our will. Many of
the Polish soldiers who were in the communistic army were often
pro-American and anti-communist as weird as it sounds. Read about
Kuklinski, a soldier in the communistic army and one of the best
agents of CIA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryszard_Kuklinski
I trust em' like I trust all
slavs...they are commies.
Wrong. In fact, the only time when the commies were defeated in a war
was by Slavic (Polish) armies:
http://www.onwar.com/aced/chrono/c1900s/yr15/fussrpoland1919.htm
In 1939 Polish troops fought both against Hitler's Nazis and against
Stalin's communists. In fact, it were the Germans who were allied with
communists in the 1939 (Libentrop-Molotov pact).
And who the hell ever heard of Gdansk, its
DANZIG. Even when the League of Nations made them a Frei Stadt, they
called it Danzig.
Hey it really dont mean that much to me haha, I just like to take
hardroad, and underdogs.
'hardroad and underdogs'? I don't know what you mean...
Mike Av
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Here you have it again.
Here is one for you. After the break up of the sowjet block and east
Germany it was the Jews in America that insistent the Germans should not
get their land back. Part of the condition was the Germans have to give
up their right to get their land back, But if they should not agree to
it they must be denied the right to reunite. The reason the Jewish loopy
gave was that the Germans could get to strong. Here we have it Germany
lost the war against Great Britain France and Russia but it is the Jews
who make the final decisions. My question to you now is who controls
America.
Kurt Knoll.
==
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 20:04:50 GMT, "Kurt Knoll" <menachem2@monarch.net>
wrote:
YUP, that'll teach ya ......
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And in what year was this done ?.
Kurt Knoll.
"Kurt Knoll" <menachem2@monarch.net> wrote in message
news:<mfD3d.478077$gE.176834@pd7tw3no>...
After 1918 part the sudetenland was given do the Czechs another part
of
Germany was given to the poles.
Wrong. No part of Germany was given to Poland. In fact it was the
opposite- parts of Poland stayed in Germany: look at any map of Poland
from before the partitions.
How and when exactly? Any proof? Most likely it's just something
Hitler's propaganda specialists devised, like the "Polish Attack" on
the radiostation in Gliwice.
Of course wars do not start from nothing, nothing does start from
nothing. In case of WWII it was mostly case of German false pride and
racism which made Germans think it's ok to invade and slaughter other
nations.
Mike Av
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| |
When Civilians shoot soldier in the back then they are partisans.
Kurt Knoll.
ElKabong <nospam@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:<03E3d.5295$je.2048@trnddc04>...
[...]
It's not about killing partisans. It's about killing non-combatant
civilian population, including women and children. Germans killed many
people who were not partisans.
Also as far as being a criminal is concerned:
1) Germans falsly accussed Poland of attacking first (Gliwice
radiostation attack)
2) The Germans did NOT declare war before attacking.
3) They shot Polish POWS when those were already disarmed
As you see, Germans commited many actions of criminal nature.
The question which I'd like to have answered is: WHY do you justify
the Germans and accuse Poles?
Yes, the French were cowards who did't even fight for their capitol.
What land?
It was't. You've must've read too much Nazi propaganda about that.
Wrong. Poland has a history as a state from as early as 10th century
and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was the largest country in
Europe around 16th century.
There was no Polish state from late 18th century to early 20th
century, due to partitions of Poland - basicly invasion of 3 empires
(Russia, Germany,Austria).
Other books would show you that Poland was the most tolerant country
of the region and in many ways more advanced than it's neighbours.
He invaded and enslaved Polish people... and now some people (you?)
incorrectly claim the land he took and which was't returned to us in
1918 as German.
No, Poland took no German land.
Actually we never terrorised you with Stalin and red army: Stalin and
red army terrorised German and Pole alike these days. For example read
about the the Polish partisans ('criminals' to you) loyal to the legal
(democratic) goverment of Poland who waged homewar against Stalin's
men, but lost.
At this point you have demonstrated many times complete lack of
knowledge of the subject.
???
NATO is first of all USA-dominated and it's by USA's will that Poland
got in.
As for European Union ("Common Market") -this step is beneficial for
Germany as well, not only Poland.
???
Listen, I don't know how to convince you but listen to this, I say
this honestly and without malice: you know nearly NOTHING about the
things you are speaking about.
Poles did't EVER do anything to destroy America, sooner the opposite.
Poland is the most pro-American country in Europe. In fact, as we
speak, there is a Polish contingent in Iraq, helping the US Army in
maintaining stability.
? We never were a enemy: we were enslaved against our will. Many of
the Polish soldiers who were in the communistic army were often
pro-American and anti-communist as weird as it sounds. Read about
Kuklinski, a soldier in the communistic army and one of the best
agents of CIA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryszard_Kuklinski
Wrong. In fact, the only time when the commies were defeated in a war
was by Slavic (Polish) armies:
http://www.onwar.com/aced/chrono/c1900s/yr15/fussrpoland1919.htm
In 1939 Polish troops fought both against Hitler's Nazis and against
Stalin's communists. In fact, it were the Germans who were allied with
communists in the 1939 (Libentrop-Molotov pact).
'hardroad and underdogs'? I don't know what you mean...
Mike Av
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