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A Google search found two serious fires, happening on the same day, one
fire causing death and the other perhaps a million dollars damage as a
result of servicing in-the-tank fuel pumps. Had these fuel pumps been
placed externally, as the usual and proven practice for more than 70 years,=
these accidents would have been prevented. Legislation is badly needed to
address this serious design deficiency as professional mechanics as well as=
amateurs are exposed to deadly danger by a totally unnecessary fuel system
configuration. In the meantime, lawyers should file a class action as all
manufacturers are currently using dangerous in-tank pumps and millions of
cars are affected. This suit is worth billions and billions. At the very
least, all cars should be retrofitted with new tanks and external pumps by
mechanics wearing fire suits and guarded by fire crews. The changeover
will save hundreds of lives and much damages while costing much deserved
hundreds of millions of dollars of expense to the responsible capitalist
titans, all of whom are totally devoid of industrial ethics.
News Story One:
Thursday, October 28, 2004 =B7 Last updated 4:11 a.m. PT
Inhalation of toxins blamed for Des Moines fire death
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
DES MOINES, Wash. -- A man who died in a garage fire after gasoline spilled=
out of a truck that was being repaired died partly from inhaling toxic
fumes, investigators said.
David E. Russ, 61, identified Wednesday as the dead man, also had burns on
more than 90 percent of his body, investigators in the King County medical
examiner's office said.
Russ and two other men was trying to replace the fuel pump on a pickup
truck Monday when the leaking fuel caught fire as the trio tried to push
the truck out of a detached garage.
All three ran outside, but Russ went back in and was trapped when the roof
collapsed, Fire Battalion Chief Victor Pennington said.
News Story Two:
Local auto dealership heavily damaged in fire
By Virgil Cochran
Lamar Daily News=20
Thursday, October 28, 2004 -=20
Tri-County Ford on Highway 50-287 north of Lamar was severely damaged by a
midmorning fire yesterday, but the manager Jeff Travis said the business
will be up and running again in just a few days.
Travis and Prowers County Rural Fire Chief Marvin Rosencrans said the fire
began when mechanics were attempting to drain a fuel tank on a vehicle in
the mechanic shop to replace a fuel pump. A fuel transfer pump developed an=
electrical short, which triggered the blaze.
It rapidly engulfed the shop area of the building, but everyone managed to
get out safely, Travis said.
Tri-County will have temporary office trailers set up on the lot by next
week, Travis said, and will be open for sales of new and used vehicles. In
the meantime, all automobiles for sale will remain on the lot, and
customers are welcome to drop by and shop, and even negotiate deals. But
the business won't be able to finalize deals until the temporary offices
are set up and computer equipment is up and running again next week.
Travis said Tri-County is also negotiating for temporary headquarters for
its mechanic shops, but it may be a few more days before the shop functions=
of the business are up and running.
Eight cars in the service area were destroyed and the service garage itself=
was heavily damaged if not totally destroyed, but Rosencrans said damage to=
the office and parts storage area was limited to mostly smoke and water
damage.
Local firefighters were called to the scene about 10:40 a.m. yesterday, and=
the Prowers Rural Fire Department was assisted by the Lamar, Wiley, and
Holly Fire Departments.
As for the existing building, Travis said the business was well insured and=
that he would meet with insurance adjusters sometime today.
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| |
Maybe I'm dense or something, but how can the in-tank fuel pump be blamed
for these two incidents?
A Google search found two serious fires, happening on the same day, one
fire causing death and the other perhaps a million dollars damage as a
result of servicing in-the-tank fuel pumps. Had these fuel pumps been
placed externally, as the usual and proven practice for more than 70 years,
these accidents would have been prevented. Legislation is badly needed to
address this serious design deficiency as professional mechanics as well as
amateurs are exposed to deadly danger by a totally unnecessary fuel system
configuration. In the meantime, lawyers should file a class action as all
manufacturers are currently using dangerous in-tank pumps and millions of
cars are affected. This suit is worth billions and billions. At the very
least, all cars should be retrofitted with new tanks and external pumps by
mechanics wearing fire suits and guarded by fire crews. The changeover
will save hundreds of lives and much damages while costing much deserved
hundreds of millions of dollars of expense to the responsible capitalist
titans, all of whom are totally devoid of industrial ethics.
News Story One:
Thursday, October 28, 2004 Last updated 4:11 a.m. PT
Inhalation of toxins blamed for Des Moines fire death
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
DES MOINES, Wash. -- A man who died in a garage fire after gasoline spilled
out of a truck that was being repaired died partly from inhaling toxic
fumes, investigators said.
David E. Russ, 61, identified Wednesday as the dead man, also had burns on
more than 90 percent of his body, investigators in the King County medical
examiner's office said.
Russ and two other men was trying to replace the fuel pump on a pickup
truck Monday when the leaking fuel caught fire as the trio tried to push
the truck out of a detached garage.
All three ran outside, but Russ went back in and was trapped when the roof
collapsed, Fire Battalion Chief Victor Pennington said.
News Story Two:
Local auto dealership heavily damaged in fire
By Virgil Cochran
Lamar Daily News
Thursday, October 28, 2004 -
Tri-County Ford on Highway 50-287 north of Lamar was severely damaged by a
midmorning fire yesterday, but the manager Jeff Travis said the business
will be up and running again in just a few days.
Travis and Prowers County Rural Fire Chief Marvin Rosencrans said the fire
began when mechanics were attempting to drain a fuel tank on a vehicle in
the mechanic shop to replace a fuel pump. A fuel transfer pump developed an
electrical short, which triggered the blaze.
It rapidly engulfed the shop area of the building, but everyone managed to
get out safely, Travis said.
Tri-County will have temporary office trailers set up on the lot by next
week, Travis said, and will be open for sales of new and used vehicles. In
the meantime, all automobiles for sale will remain on the lot, and
customers are welcome to drop by and shop, and even negotiate deals. But
the business won't be able to finalize deals until the temporary offices
are set up and computer equipment is up and running again next week.
Travis said Tri-County is also negotiating for temporary headquarters for
its mechanic shops, but it may be a few more days before the shop functions
of the business are up and running.
Eight cars in the service area were destroyed and the service garage itself
was heavily damaged if not totally destroyed, but Rosencrans said damage to
the office and parts storage area was limited to mostly smoke and water
damage.
Local firefighters were called to the scene about 10:40 a.m. yesterday, and
the Prowers Rural Fire Department was assisted by the Lamar, Wiley, and
Holly Fire Departments.
As for the existing building, Travis said the business was well insured and
that he would meet with insurance adjusters sometime today.
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| |
Fishing troll.
A Google search found two serious fires, happening on the same day, one
fire causing death and the other perhaps a million dollars damage as a
result of servicing in-the-tank fuel pumps. Had these fuel pumps been
placed externally, as the usual and proven practice for more than 70 years,
these accidents would have been prevented. Legislation is badly needed to
address this serious design deficiency as professional mechanics as well as
amateurs are exposed to deadly danger by a totally unnecessary fuel system
configuration. In the meantime, lawyers should file a class action as all
manufacturers are currently using dangerous in-tank pumps and millions of
cars are affected. This suit is worth billions and billions. At the very
least, all cars should be retrofitted with new tanks and external pumps by
mechanics wearing fire suits and guarded by fire crews. The changeover
will save hundreds of lives and much damages while costing much deserved
hundreds of millions of dollars of expense to the responsible capitalist
titans, all of whom are totally devoid of industrial ethics.
News Story One:
Thursday, October 28, 2004 Last updated 4:11 a.m. PT
Inhalation of toxins blamed for Des Moines fire death
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
DES MOINES, Wash. -- A man who died in a garage fire after gasoline spilled
out of a truck that was being repaired died partly from inhaling toxic
fumes, investigators said.
David E. Russ, 61, identified Wednesday as the dead man, also had burns on
more than 90 percent of his body, investigators in the King County medical
examiner's office said.
Russ and two other men was trying to replace the fuel pump on a pickup
truck Monday when the leaking fuel caught fire as the trio tried to push
the truck out of a detached garage.
All three ran outside, but Russ went back in and was trapped when the roof
collapsed, Fire Battalion Chief Victor Pennington said.
News Story Two:
Local auto dealership heavily damaged in fire
By Virgil Cochran
Lamar Daily News
Thursday, October 28, 2004 -
Tri-County Ford on Highway 50-287 north of Lamar was severely damaged by a
midmorning fire yesterday, but the manager Jeff Travis said the business
will be up and running again in just a few days.
Travis and Prowers County Rural Fire Chief Marvin Rosencrans said the fire
began when mechanics were attempting to drain a fuel tank on a vehicle in
the mechanic shop to replace a fuel pump. A fuel transfer pump developed an
electrical short, which triggered the blaze.
It rapidly engulfed the shop area of the building, but everyone managed to
get out safely, Travis said.
Tri-County will have temporary office trailers set up on the lot by next
week, Travis said, and will be open for sales of new and used vehicles. In
the meantime, all automobiles for sale will remain on the lot, and
customers are welcome to drop by and shop, and even negotiate deals. But
the business won't be able to finalize deals until the temporary offices
are set up and computer equipment is up and running again next week.
Travis said Tri-County is also negotiating for temporary headquarters for
its mechanic shops, but it may be a few more days before the shop functions
of the business are up and running.
Eight cars in the service area were destroyed and the service garage itself
was heavily damaged if not totally destroyed, but Rosencrans said damage to
the office and parts storage area was limited to mostly smoke and water
damage.
Local firefighters were called to the scene about 10:40 a.m. yesterday, and
the Prowers Rural Fire Department was assisted by the Lamar, Wiley, and
Holly Fire Departments.
As for the existing building, Travis said the business was well insured and
that he would meet with insurance adjusters sometime today.
|
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| |
Maybe I'm dense or something, but how can the in-tank fuel pump be blamed
for these two incidents?
Might be.
Story 1
First the disclaimer. I could be wrong, but . . .
Every in-tank fuel pump I know of requires that the tank be
removed from the vehicle. Perhaps they tried to sleaze-repair
by not draining the tank. Or maybe they substantially drained
the tank, but not completely. If the pump were external as has
been conventional for decades, the tank wouldn't have to be
drained and removed to safely remove the fuel pump.
Story 2
"Travis and Prowers County Rural Fire Chief Marvin Rosencrans said the fire
began when mechanics were attempting to drain a fuel tank on a vehicle in
the mechanic shop to replace a fuel pump. A fuel transfer pump developed an
electrical short, which triggered the blaze."
Kind of self-explanatory, isn't it?
By the way, little-old me - a mechanical engineer - really doesn't
understand
why the pumps were stuck in the tank. I believe "Click and Clack"
aka Tom and Ray Maliozzi MIT graduates and hosts of Car Talk once,
as I recall, said they were not sure why the pumps were stuck in the
tank.
Possible reason - Increases cost of repair?
A Google search found two serious fires, happening on the same day, one
fire causing death and the other perhaps a million dollars damage as a
result of servicing in-the-tank fuel pumps. Had these fuel pumps been
placed externally, as the usual and proven practice for more than 70
years,
these accidents would have been prevented. Legislation is badly needed to
address this serious design deficiency as professional mechanics as well
as
amateurs are exposed to deadly danger by a totally unnecessary fuel system
configuration. In the meantime, lawyers should file a class action as all
manufacturers are currently using dangerous in-tank pumps and millions of
cars are affected. This suit is worth billions and billions. At the very
least, all cars should be retrofitted with new tanks and external pumps by
mechanics wearing fire suits and guarded by fire crews. The changeover
will save hundreds of lives and much damages while costing much deserved
hundreds of millions of dollars of expense to the responsible capitalist
titans, all of whom are totally devoid of industrial ethics.
News Story One:
Thursday, October 28, 2004 Last updated 4:11 a.m. PT
Inhalation of toxins blamed for Des Moines fire death
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
DES MOINES, Wash. -- A man who died in a garage fire after gasoline
spilled
out of a truck that was being repaired died partly from inhaling toxic
fumes, investigators said.
David E. Russ, 61, identified Wednesday as the dead man, also had burns on
more than 90 percent of his body, investigators in the King County medical
examiner's office said.
Russ and two other men was trying to replace the fuel pump on a pickup
truck Monday when the leaking fuel caught fire as the trio tried to push
the truck out of a detached garage.
All three ran outside, but Russ went back in and was trapped when the roof
collapsed, Fire Battalion Chief Victor Pennington said.
News Story Two:
Local auto dealership heavily damaged in fire
By Virgil Cochran
Lamar Daily News
Thursday, October 28, 2004 -
Tri-County Ford on Highway 50-287 north of Lamar was severely damaged by a
midmorning fire yesterday, but the manager Jeff Travis said the business
will be up and running again in just a few days.
Travis and Prowers County Rural Fire Chief Marvin Rosencrans said the fire
began when mechanics were attempting to drain a fuel tank on a vehicle in
the mechanic shop to replace a fuel pump. A fuel transfer pump developed
an
electrical short, which triggered the blaze.
It rapidly engulfed the shop area of the building, but everyone managed to
get out safely, Travis said.
Tri-County will have temporary office trailers set up on the lot by next
week, Travis said, and will be open for sales of new and used vehicles. In
the meantime, all automobiles for sale will remain on the lot, and
customers are welcome to drop by and shop, and even negotiate deals. But
the business won't be able to finalize deals until the temporary offices
are set up and computer equipment is up and running again next week.
Travis said Tri-County is also negotiating for temporary headquarters for
its mechanic shops, but it may be a few more days before the shop
functions
of the business are up and running.
Eight cars in the service area were destroyed and the service garage
itself
was heavily damaged if not totally destroyed, but Rosencrans said damage
to
the office and parts storage area was limited to mostly smoke and water
damage.
Local firefighters were called to the scene about 10:40 a.m. yesterday,
and
the Prowers Rural Fire Department was assisted by the Lamar, Wiley, and
Holly Fire Departments.
As for the existing building, Travis said the business was well insured
and
that he would meet with insurance adjusters sometime today.
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Maybe I'm dense or something, but how can the in-tank fuel pump be blamed
for these two incidents?
Its a Nomen thread, anything can and will be written, someday I wish him and
Mic Canic would get a clue
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Al Smith wrote:
By the way, little-old me - a mechanical engineer - really doesn't
understand
why the pumps were stuck in the tank. I believe "Click and Clack"
aka Tom and Ray Maliozzi MIT graduates and hosts of Car Talk once,
as I recall, said they were not sure why the pumps were stuck in the
tank.
Simple: To increase integration and reduce costs. The auto mfgrs.
prefer to buy fewer total assemblies from suppliers to cut down on costs
such as separate handling, installation, shipping, purchase contracts,
parallel paper trails, tracking systems, project managers, installation
effort, etc. By putting the fuel pump with the "sending" unit, the fuel
pump and gage sender (and, in the case of the LH cars, the fuel filter)
get incorporated into one purchased "part".
Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
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Fishing troll.
A Google search found two serious fires, happening on the same day,
<<Snippage>>
No shiite.
Lessee...if we all gave up cars we could save 45,000 lives a year, no wait,
we'd also have to give up transportation of medicines too...so maybe we'd
have a net savings of 22,000 lives a year...ooops, death by horse
accidents...ok, we save 11,000 lives a year...but those 11,000 starve
because there's no way to transport the food from farm to market.
Ok, let's all just commit suicide now and save everyone the bother of
living.
You play the game you take your chances...
The world was made with corners and no amount of doo-doo-gooder wishful
thinking is going to change this from a zero sum game. Carpe diem...or get
out of the way and stop trying to save me from myself.
Cripes.
Richard
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All three ran outside, but Russ went back in and was trapped when the roof
collapsed, Fire Battalion Chief Victor Pennington said.
And thus I present to him the Darwin Award.
--
Scott Ehardt
http://www.scehardt.com
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Al Smith wrote:
First the disclaimer. I could be wrong, but . . .
Every in-tank fuel pump I know of requires that the tank be
removed from the vehicle. Perhaps they tried to sleaze-repair
by not draining the tank. Or maybe they substantially drained
the tank, but not completely. If the pump were external as has
been conventional for decades, the tank wouldn't have to be
drained and removed to safely remove the fuel pump.
Yup, you are wrong.
Rob
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Al Smith wrote:
Story 2
"Travis and Prowers County Rural Fire Chief Marvin Rosencrans said the fire
began when mechanics were attempting to drain a fuel tank on a vehicle in
the mechanic shop to replace a fuel pump. A fuel transfer pump developed an
electrical short, which triggered the blaze."
Kind of self-explanatory, isn't it?
Yup... it had little to nothing to do with the actual fuel pump - it was
faulty tools and/or techniques.
Rob
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On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 00:52:44 GMT, "Scott Ehardt"
<SCEhardt---REM@VE---SCEhardt.com> wrote:
And thus I present to him the Darwin Award.
Now if he was going back in "to save a dog" he'd be a typical Darwin
winner.
Just a shame that no one has invented a "fire extinguisher" yet to
deal with such a circumstance. Though I suppose working with
Gasoline, a fire is the last thing you'd suspect. :-)
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I believe this trollishly crossposted nonsense... wait for it...
was intended to IGNITE FLAMES!
OHHH... (groan)... but what's worse is that it seems to have worked.
Nomen Nescio? Scandanavian Networks?
"NN - eller Nomen Nescio - er Nordiskt Netvrk for navnegenkendelse.
NN or Nomen Nescio is Scandinavian Networks by navnegenkendelse."
<http://www.tranexp.com:2000/InterTran?url=http%3A%2F%2F&type=text&text=+NN+-+eller+Nomen+Nescio+-+er+Nordiskt+Netv%E6rk+for+navnegenkendelse.&from=dan&to=eng>
Alright... I'm still working on the translation, but I think I'm close...
Nomen Nescio wrote:
A Google search found two serious fires, happening on the same day, one
fire causing death and the other perhaps a million dollars damage as a
result of servicing in-the-tank fuel pumps. Had these fuel pumps been
placed externally, as the usual and proven practice for more than 70 years,
these accidents would have been prevented. Legislation is badly needed to
address this serious design deficiency as professional mechanics as well as
amateurs are exposed to deadly danger by a totally unnecessary fuel system
configuration. In the meantime, lawyers should file a class action as all
manufacturers are currently using dangerous in-tank pumps and millions of
cars are affected. This suit is worth billions and billions. At the very
least, all cars should be retrofitted with new tanks and external pumps by
mechanics wearing fire suits and guarded by fire crews. The changeover
will save hundreds of lives and much damages while costing much deserved
hundreds of millions of dollars of expense to the responsible capitalist
titans, all of whom are totally devoid of industrial ethics.
News Story One:
Thursday, October 28, 2004 Last updated 4:11 a.m. PT
Inhalation of toxins blamed for Des Moines fire death
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
DES MOINES, Wash. -- A man who died in a garage fire after gasoline spilled
out of a truck that was being repaired died partly from inhaling toxic
fumes, investigators said.
David E. Russ, 61, identified Wednesday as the dead man, also had burns on
more than 90 percent of his body, investigators in the King County medical
examiner's office said.
Russ and two other men was trying to replace the fuel pump on a pickup
truck Monday when the leaking fuel caught fire as the trio tried to push
the truck out of a detached garage.
All three ran outside, but Russ went back in and was trapped when the roof
collapsed, Fire Battalion Chief Victor Pennington said.
News Story Two:
Local auto dealership heavily damaged in fire
By Virgil Cochran
Lamar Daily News
Thursday, October 28, 2004 -
Tri-County Ford on Highway 50-287 north of Lamar was severely damaged by a
midmorning fire yesterday, but the manager Jeff Travis said the business
will be up and running again in just a few days.
Travis and Prowers County Rural Fire Chief Marvin Rosencrans said the fire
began when mechanics were attempting to drain a fuel tank on a vehicle in
the mechanic shop to replace a fuel pump. A fuel transfer pump developed an
electrical short, which triggered the blaze.
It rapidly engulfed the shop area of the building, but everyone managed to
get out safely, Travis said.
Tri-County will have temporary office trailers set up on the lot by next
week, Travis said, and will be open for sales of new and used vehicles. In
the meantime, all automobiles for sale will remain on the lot, and
customers are welcome to drop by and shop, and even negotiate deals. But
the business won't be able to finalize deals until the temporary offices
are set up and computer equipment is up and running again next week.
Travis said Tri-County is also negotiating for temporary headquarters for
its mechanic shops, but it may be a few more days before the shop functions
of the business are up and running.
Eight cars in the service area were destroyed and the service garage itself
was heavily damaged if not totally destroyed, but Rosencrans said damage to
the office and parts storage area was limited to mostly smoke and water
damage.
Local firefighters were called to the scene about 10:40 a.m. yesterday, and
the Prowers Rural Fire Department was assisted by the Lamar, Wiley, and
Holly Fire Departments.
As for the existing building, Travis said the business was well insured and
that he would meet with insurance adjusters sometime today.
|
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You can't legislate against stupidity. If you follow some basic safey
precautions there is very little danger. I'm not a professional mechanic
and I have changed out 3 in tank fuel pumps with no problems. This is as
stupid as the folks trying to blame Honda for fires caused by mechanics who
didn't check for the old filters gasket when doing an oil change.
----------------
Alex
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In article <M5GdnW51dpu4NBzcRVn-ig@usadatanet.net>, lmsearing@usdatanet.net
says...
Al Smith wrote:
First the disclaimer. I could be wrong, but . . .
Every in-tank fuel pump I know of requires that the tank be
removed from the vehicle. Perhaps they tried to sleaze-repair
by not draining the tank. Or maybe they substantially drained
the tank, but not completely. If the pump were external as has
been conventional for decades, the tank wouldn't have to be
drained and removed to safely remove the fuel pump.
Yup, you are wrong.
Definitely wrong. I changed the in tank fuel pump on my 86 Dodge GLH-T
three times. All I had to do was wait for the fuel level to drop low
enough before I pulled it. I jakced up the right rear of the car and
then pulled off the wheel. Then the fuel pump/sender assembly could be
easily pulled out. Smart design.
---------------
Alex
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An educated guess - adding to your clearly educated response - no
sarcasm, so don't get pissed...
Also, this type of integration is used secondarily, but not
insignificantly, to increase book-billed labor charges and replacement
costs on all related parts and diagnostic procedures. Under warranty,
this isn't usually a big deal, because the factory-trained techs are
specifically trained in the "is/is not" questions that arise, and how to
test for them. Off warranty, or at the local shop, properly trained
techs use this to their advantage like many other things, simply billing
"book time" that doesn't reflect reality, relying on the customer's
ignorance.
While replacing a heater core, and heater hoses while they were at it,
which I completely agreed with, a shop tried to bill me $120 in labor to
change the thermostat. I told them to put it back together, fill it,
and then expect legal trouble, or to do it as part of the job, and just
bill me for the part. Knowing I'd caught them in a lie in January,
while I was at work downtown when it was zero degrees outside, they shut
up and acquiesced, albeit begrudingly. I laughed, and asked repeatedly
why I could do something in 10 min., by itself, that would take them 1.5
hours with everything already aparts. They had no answer. I had the
facts, prices and diagrams right in front of me as well. It wasn't
worth it to them. I'm not a lawyer, I'm a businessman. It was all
about cost / benefit in this case. I never have gone back to them (a
major repair franchise, I might add).
In their defense, shops use book time out of necessity sometimes,
because of a lack of local knowledge. In their attack, shops and techs
use book time to make money on flat-rate labor. Techs and shops alike
continually look for common, high-book-time gems with which to bilk
their customers and reap profits.
Sadly, few people have time to, care to, or can, feasibly, dig into
these problems themselves, which is why this system has proven so
successful.
The saddest and most uncertain factor in these equations is the newbie
tech who just invested $50,000 in his or her education and tools to work
on new cars. Too many fail or quit, and most are underpaid for their
valuable work. Others succeed, and either become vampires themselves,
or are good enough (morally and skill-wise) to turn an honest, good
profit and NOT screw consumers with (on average) 100% markups on parts
and book-billed labor.
Ok, so many of you know all of this, and are saying "so what". I'm just
throwing this out there on my own time, having seen both sides, and I'm
just trying to share experience...
FWIW... a little homework goes a long way, if not done anywhere but from
Google and a $20 repair manual...
Bill Putney wrote:
Al Smith wrote:
Simple: To increase integration and reduce costs. The auto mfgrs.
prefer to buy fewer total assemblies from suppliers to cut down on costs
such as separate handling, installation, shipping, purchase contracts,
parallel paper trails, tracking systems, project managers, installation
effort, etc. By putting the fuel pump with the "sending" unit, the fuel
pump and gage sender (and, in the case of the LH cars, the fuel filter)
get incorporated into one purchased "part".
Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')
----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000
Newsgroups
---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
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Right ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! brother. Does not matter if the
stupidity occures in a garage or on the internet.
You can't legislate against stupidity. If you follow some basic safey
precautions there is very little danger. I'm not a professional mechanic
and I have changed out 3 in tank fuel pumps with no problems. This is as
stupid as the folks trying to blame Honda for fires caused by mechanics
who
didn't check for the old filters gasket when doing an oil change.
----------------
Alex
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POPPY COCK!!!!! what a crock,,,ok lets put the fuel pumps outside the tank,
Where should we put the fuel Sending unit???? Ever thought maybe the person
working on the car didnt know what they were doing???? I wonder if maybe
they were using a drop lite next to the tank to see what they were doing and
maybe the pressurized fuel hit the bulb and ignited the fuel? Mcdonalds got
sued for having coffee scold someone, coffee has been hot for how many
yrs??? should me make coffee cold now
Glenn Beasley
Chrysler Tech
A Google search found two serious fires, happening on the same day, one
fire causing death and the other perhaps a million dollars damage as a
result of servicing in-the-tank fuel pumps. Had these fuel pumps been
placed externally, as the usual and proven practice for more than 70 years,
these accidents would have been prevented. Legislation is badly needed to
address this serious design deficiency as professional mechanics as well as
amateurs are exposed to deadly danger by a totally unnecessary fuel system
configuration. In the meantime, lawyers should file a class action as all
manufacturers are currently using dangerous in-tank pumps and millions of
cars are affected. This suit is worth billions and billions. At the very
least, all cars should be retrofitted with new tanks and external pumps by
mechanics wearing fire suits and guarded by fire crews. The changeover
will save hundreds of lives and much damages while costing much deserved
hundreds of millions of dollars of expense to the responsible capitalist
titans, all of whom are totally devoid of industrial ethics.
News Story One:
Thursday, October 28, 2004 Last updated 4:11 a.m. PT
Inhalation of toxins blamed for Des Moines fire death
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
DES MOINES, Wash. -- A man who died in a garage fire after gasoline spilled
out of a truck that was being repaired died partly from inhaling toxic
fumes, investigators said.
David E. Russ, 61, identified Wednesday as the dead man, also had burns on
more than 90 percent of his body, investigators in the King County medical
examiner's office said.
Russ and two other men was trying to replace the fuel pump on a pickup
truck Monday when the leaking fuel caught fire as the trio tried to push
the truck out of a detached garage.
All three ran outside, but Russ went back in and was trapped when the roof
collapsed, Fire Battalion Chief Victor Pennington said.
News Story Two:
Local auto dealership heavily damaged in fire
By Virgil Cochran
Lamar Daily News
Thursday, October 28, 2004 -
Tri-County Ford on Highway 50-287 north of Lamar was severely damaged by a
midmorning fire yesterday, but the manager Jeff Travis said the business
will be up and running again in just a few days.
Travis and Prowers County Rural Fire Chief Marvin Rosencrans said the fire
began when mechanics were attempting to drain a fuel tank on a vehicle in
the mechanic shop to replace a fuel pump. A fuel transfer pump developed an
electrical short, which triggered the blaze.
It rapidly engulfed the shop area of the building, but everyone managed to
get out safely, Travis said.
Tri-County will have temporary office trailers set up on the lot by next
week, Travis said, and will be open for sales of new and used vehicles. In
the meantime, all automobiles for sale will remain on the lot, and
customers are welcome to drop by and shop, and even negotiate deals. But
the business won't be able to finalize deals until the temporary offices
are set up and computer equipment is up and running again next week.
Travis said Tri-County is also negotiating for temporary headquarters for
its mechanic shops, but it may be a few more days before the shop functions
of the business are up and running.
Eight cars in the service area were destroyed and the service garage itself
was heavily damaged if not totally destroyed, but Rosencrans said damage to
the office and parts storage area was limited to mostly smoke and water
damage.
Local firefighters were called to the scene about 10:40 a.m. yesterday, and
the Prowers Rural Fire Department was assisted by the Lamar, Wiley, and
Holly Fire Departments.
As for the existing building, Travis said the business was well insured and
that he would meet with insurance adjusters sometime today.
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When A liar, i mean lawyer sees a chance to make money, this is what you get
A Google search found two serious fires, happening on the same day, one
fire causing death and the other perhaps a million dollars damage as a
result of servicing in-the-tank fuel pumps. Had these fuel pumps been
placed externally, as the usual and proven practice for more than 70 years,
these accidents would have been prevented. Legislation is badly needed to
address this serious design deficiency as professional mechanics as well as
amateurs are exposed to deadly danger by a totally unnecessary fuel system
configuration. In the meantime, lawyers should file a class action as all
manufacturers are currently using dangerous in-tank pumps and millions of
cars are affected. This suit is worth billions and billions. At the very
least, all cars should be retrofitted with new tanks and external pumps by
mechanics wearing fire suits and guarded by fire crews. The changeover
will save hundreds of lives and much damages while costing much deserved
hundreds of millions of dollars of expense to the responsible capitalist
titans, all of whom are totally devoid of industrial ethics.
News Story One:
Thursday, October 28, 2004 Last updated 4:11 a.m. PT
Inhalation of toxins blamed for Des Moines fire death
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
DES MOINES, Wash. -- A man who died in a garage fire after gasoline spilled
out of a truck that was being repaired died partly from inhaling toxic
fumes, investigators said.
David E. Russ, 61, identified Wednesday as the dead man, also had burns on
more than 90 percent of his body, investigators in the King County medical
examiner's office said.
Russ and two other men was trying to replace the fuel pump on a pickup
truck Monday when the leaking fuel caught fire as the trio tried to push
the truck out of a detached garage.
All three ran outside, but Russ went back in and was trapped when the roof
collapsed, Fire Battalion Chief Victor Pennington said.
News Story Two:
Local auto dealership heavily damaged in fire
By Virgil Cochran
Lamar Daily News
Thursday, October 28, 2004 -
Tri-County Ford on Highway 50-287 north of Lamar was severely damaged by a
midmorning fire yesterday, but the manager Jeff Travis said the business
will be up and running again in just a few days.
Travis and Prowers County Rural Fire Chief Marvin Rosencrans said the fire
began when mechanics were attempting to drain a fuel tank on a vehicle in
the mechanic shop to replace a fuel pump. A fuel transfer pump developed an
electrical short, which triggered the blaze.
It rapidly engulfed the shop area of the building, but everyone managed to
get out safely, Travis said.
Tri-County will have temporary office trailers set up on the lot by next
week, Travis said, and will be open for sales of new and used vehicles. In
the meantime, all automobiles for sale will remain on the lot, and
customers are welcome to drop by and shop, and even negotiate deals. But
the business won't be able to finalize deals until the temporary offices
are set up and computer equipment is up and running again next week.
Travis said Tri-County is also negotiating for temporary headquarters for
its mechanic shops, but it may be a few more days before the shop functions
of the business are up and running.
Eight cars in the service area were destroyed and the service garage itself
was heavily damaged if not totally destroyed, but Rosencrans said damage to
the office and parts storage area was limited to mostly smoke and water
damage.
Local firefighters were called to the scene about 10:40 a.m. yesterday, and
the Prowers Rural Fire Department was assisted by the Lamar, Wiley, and
Holly Fire Departments.
As for the existing building, Travis said the business was well insured and
that he would meet with insurance adjusters sometime today.
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AMEN to that!
When A liar, i mean lawyer sees a chance to make money, this is what you
get
A Google search found two serious fires, happening on the same day, one
fire causing death and the other perhaps a million dollars damage as a
result of servicing in-the-tank fuel pumps. Had these fuel pumps been
placed externally, as the usual and proven practice for more than 70
years,
these accidents would have been prevented. Legislation is badly needed to
address this serious design deficiency as professional mechanics as well
as
amateurs are exposed to deadly danger by a totally unnecessary fuel system
configuration. In the meantime, lawyers should file a class action as all
manufacturers are currently using dangerous in-tank pumps and millions of
cars are affected. This suit is worth billions and billions. At the very
least, all cars should be retrofitted with new tanks and external pumps by
mechanics wearing fire suits and guarded by fire crews. The changeover
will save hundreds of lives and much damages while costing much deserved
hundreds of millions of dollars of expense to the responsible capitalist
titans, all of whom are totally devoid of industrial ethics.
News Story One:
Thursday, October 28, 2004 Last updated 4:11 a.m. PT
Inhalation of toxins blamed for Des Moines fire death
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
DES MOINES, Wash. -- A man who died in a garage fire after gasoline
spilled
out of a truck that was being repaired died partly from inhaling toxic
fumes, investigators said.
David E. Russ, 61, identified Wednesday as the dead man, also had burns on
more than 90 percent of his body, investigators in the King County medical
examiner's office said.
Russ and two other men was trying to replace the fuel pump on a pickup
truck Monday when the leaking fuel caught fire as the trio tried to push
the truck out of a detached garage.
All three ran outside, but Russ went back in and was trapped when the roof
collapsed, Fire Battalion Chief Victor Pennington said.
News Story Two:
Local auto dealership heavily damaged in fire
By Virgil Cochran
Lamar Daily News
Thursday, October 28, 2004 -
Tri-County Ford on Highway 50-287 north of Lamar was severely damaged by a
midmorning fire yesterday, but the manager Jeff Travis said the business
will be up and running again in just a few days.
Travis and Prowers County Rural Fire Chief Marvin Rosencrans said the fire
began when mechanics were attempting to drain a fuel tank on a vehicle in
the mechanic shop to replace a fuel pump. A fuel transfer pump developed
an
electrical short, which triggered the blaze.
It rapidly engulfed the shop area of the building, but everyone managed to
get out safely, Travis said.
Tri-County will have temporary office trailers set up on the lot by next
week, Travis said, and will be open for sales of new and used vehicles. In
the meantime, all automobiles for sale will remain on the lot, and
customers are welcome to drop by and shop, and even negotiate deals. But
the business won't be able to finalize deals until the temporary offices
are set up and computer equipment is up and running again next week.
Travis said Tri-County is also negotiating for temporary headquarters for
its mechanic shops, but it may be a few more days before the shop
functions
of the business are up and running.
Eight cars in the service area were destroyed and the service garage
itself
was heavily damaged if not totally destroyed, but Rosencrans said damage
to
the office and parts storage area was limited to mostly smoke and water
damage.
Local firefighters were called to the scene about 10:40 a.m. yesterday,
and
the Prowers Rural Fire Department was assisted by the Lamar, Wiley, and
Holly Fire Departments.
As for the existing building, Travis said the business was well insured
and
that he would meet with insurance adjusters sometime today.
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Senator John Edwards, is that you?
Two examples, of how NOT to properly handle volatile fuels,
deleted for lack of relevance. LOL
mike hunt
Nomen Nescio wrote:
A Google search found two serious fires, happening on the same day, one
fire causing death and the other perhaps a million dollars damage as a
result of servicing in-the-tank fuel pumps.
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Perhaps if your degree was in electrical, rather than mechanical,
engineering you might. One reason is liquids can not burn. By
being inside the tank, there is no possibility of a combustible
mixture or fire. If for example the electric fuel pump were
outside the tank, in the line, there is a much greater
probability of a combustible mixture occurring in the event of a
fuel leak. OK?
mike hunt
Al Smith wrote:
By the way, little-old me - a mechanical engineer - really doesn't
understand
why the pumps were stuck in the tank. I believe "Click and Clack"
aka Tom and Ray Maliozzi MIT graduates and hosts of Car Talk once,
as I recall, said they were not sure why the pumps were stuck in the
tank.
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Wound Up wrote:
..
Nomen Nescio? Scandanavian Networks?
"NN - eller Nomen Nescio - er Nordiskt Netvrk for navnegenkendelse.
NN or Nomen Nescio is Scandinavian Networks by navnegenkendelse."
<http://www.tranexp.com:2000/InterTran?url=http%3A%2F%2F&type=text&text=+NN+-+eller+Nomen+Nescio+-+er+Nordiskt+Netv%E6rk+for+navnegenkendelse.&from=dan&to=eng>
Alright... I'm still working on the translation, but I think I'm close...
Nomen in Latin is "name" and Nescio is "I don't know", so, he doesn't
know his own name.... but I suspect it's Nader! Probably a descendant.
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MelvinGibson@mailcity.com wrote:
Perhaps if your degree was in electrical, rather than mechanical,
engineering you might. One reason is liquids can not burn. By
being inside the tank, there is no possibility of a combustible
mixture or fire. If for example the electric fuel pump were
outside the tank, in the line, there is a much greater
probability of a combustible mixture occurring in the event of a
fuel leak. OK?
Hi...
I'm electrical - but sure not interested in taking sides
in this conversation.
I do have one question though that I'd like to ask if
I may? When I have a quarter tank of fuel left, what
exactly occupies the remaining space?
Ken
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Wound Up wrote:
Also, this type of integration is used secondarily, but not
insignificantly, to increase book-billed labour charges and replacement
costs on all related parts and diagnostic procedures. Under warranty,
this isn't usually a big deal, because the factory-trained techs are
specifically trained in the "is/is not" questions that arise, and how
to test for them. Off warranty, or at the local shop, properly
trained techs use this to their advantage like many other things,
simply billing "book time" that doesn't reflect reality, relying on
the customer's ignorance.
This shows your lack of knowledge about the times required
to replace in tank fuel pumps and the older on-engine fuel pumps.
For someone who knows what they are doing (like myself), there
is very little difference in labour time needed to change an in-tank
fuel pump as opposed to the older on-engine fuel pumps. And as
far as "reality"....the trained tech has already taken his lumps on
the warranty side of things (low times) and has become extremely
efficient at doing the job by the time it becomes a "customer pay"
job. Who are you to pass judgement on them.....come and walk
in their shoes for a mile or two and then you will know what
flat rate is all about.
In their defence, shops use book time out of necessity sometimes,
because of a lack of local knowledge. In their attack, shops and
techs use book time to make money on flat-rate labour. Techs and
shops alike continually look for common, high-book-time gems with
which to bilk their customers and reap profits.
This may be true in a certain percentage of labour operations,
but most operations, "you" as the owner, could not come close
to doing it in the time allowed by the book. You might be able
to beat the time on a thermostat, but if you were working on vehicles
all day long, you'd lose your ass. I'd extend a challenge to anyone
who isn't a professional technician to come on in and work with me
for a week. It'll be an eye opener both ways....you will see the jobs
that I make tons of time on, and you will see the jobs that waste my
time. It usually works out to about 140% efficiency overall. And you
would learn why I'm worth that.
The saddest and most uncertain factor in these equations is the newbie
tech who just invested $50,000 in his or her education and tools to
work on new cars.
Good god....whoever spends that kind of money to get started in this
trade is a lunatic. Or has some sort of "tool fetish". I've seen those
types
of technicians. Lot's of shiny tools, but have no clue what to do with
them.
Too many fail or quit, and most are underpaid for
their valuable work. Others succeed, and either become vampires
themselves, or are good enough (morally and skill-wise) to turn an
honest, good profit and NOT screw consumers with (on average) 100%
markups on parts and book-billed labour.
Too many fail or quit, because they imagine that they can be making
80 grand in five years. It doesn't work that way....it takes a lot of
time and experience to become a good, honest, flat rate mechanic.
I laugh at the young guys in our shop that think they should be making
14 hrs a day. It certainly won't happen if they take an hour in the morning
to "get going"...and spend another hour or two a day outside smoking and
bull#@($ting with everyone. You gotta work hard in this trade if you want
to make good money. And you "can" make good money.
Ian
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Ken Weitzel wrote:
MelvinGibson@mailcity.com wrote:
Hi...
I'm electrical - but sure not interested in taking sides
in this conversation.
I do have one question though that I'd like to ask if
I may? When I have a quarter tank of fuel left, what
exactly occupies the remaining space?
If I see where you're going with this, the inside of the fuel pump
(where all the electrical commutation/sparking takes place) is 100% full
of liquid fuel under all conditions. Missing only one ingredient for
fire or explosion: air/oxygen. Comforting thought, eh?
To answer your question: air (but all the arcing and sparking is inside
the pump with only liquid fuel).
Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
adddress with the letter 'x')
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