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I sold an ATV (1986 three wheeler) to a 16 Yr. old in Arizona. He and
his adult companion took possession of the ATV in the adults truck. I
received cash and had the 16 year old sign Two copies of the Bill of
sale (with "AS IS" highlighted). I fully explained that this was
without a "title paper" . The buyer (now in possession of the
vehicle) is demanding i get a title for him. Well, his Mother is.
They really desire a full refund.
any legal opinions on this.
reference to a statute covering sales in Arizona?
Fun quandary
They threatened to kick my #ss if i don't take back the bike...hehe
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I sold an ATV (1986 three wheeler) to a 16 Yr. old in Arizona. He and
his adult companion took possession of the ATV in the adults truck. I
received cash and had the 16 year old sign Two copies of the Bill of
sale (with "AS IS" highlighted). I fully explained that this was
without a "title paper".
Did it also say that in the Bill of Sale? Or you just told him
orally?
The buyer (now in possession of the
vehicle) is demanding i get a title for him. Well, his Mother is.
Can you get a title for an ATV in AZ? If you had one before and lost
it, you already know the answer to that question. If so, you
probably do owe them the effort to go to your local DMV and get a
replacement title issued. It's not that big a deal; they will look
you up on their records to see that you are the registered owner and
then you will just have to prove you are you, and pay a small fee, and
they give you a replacement title certificate, which you can then sign
over to the kid. That would fulfill your end of the bargain, and you
don't owe them a refund. Or if permitted in your state, the buyers
can take your bill of sale to the DMV and apply for their own
replacement title. A quick call to the nearest DMV ought to answer a
lot of questions.
OTOH maybe there's no such thing as a title certificate for an ATV in
AZ. Different states have different rules, and some don't issue
titles for purely off-road vehicles or power equipment that doesn't
have to be licensed, or for older motorcycles, or those below a
certain size in displacement. They treat them the same as e.g.
lawnmowers. If that's the case, then they're asking you to do
something impossible, and you also don't owe them that either.
Um, I'm assuming you ARE the legitimate owner of the ATV before you
sold it, whether or not you had a title certificate. If not, you owe
them a refund (and you owe the bike back to whoever really owns it).
But you knew that.
Even an "as-is" sale with no warranties of condition of the equipment
carries with it an implied warranty of good title (meaning the right
of ownership, whether or not you have a paper that says you're the
owner). If you're not the owner, you have no right to sell the
vehicle, and the buyer can rescind the sale (and maybe even sue _you_
for damages).
They really desire a full refund.
any legal opinions on this.
reference to a statute covering sales in Arizona?
Fun quandary
They threatened to kick my #ss if i don't take back the bike...hehe
Well, that would be a possibly criminal offense -- extortion (using
threats of violence to obtain money or property) and/or assault ...
but by all means don't reply in kind. Stick to the legalities of the
transaction and stick to your position once you figure out if you owe
him a refund or not.
--
This posting is for discussion purposes, not professional advice.
Anything you post on this Newsgroup is public information.
I am not your lawyer, and you are not my client in any specific legal
matter.
For confidential professional advice, consult a lawyer in a private
communication.
Mike Jacobs
LAW OFFICE OF W. MICHAEL JACOBS
10440 Little Patuxent Pkwy #300
Columbia, MD 21044
(tel) 410-740-5685 (fax) 410-740-4300
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I sold an ATV (1986 three wheeler) to a 16 Yr. old in Arizona. He and
his adult companion took possession of the ATV in the adults truck. I
received cash and had the 16 year old sign Two copies of the Bill of
sale (with "AS IS" highlighted). I fully explained that this was
without a "title paper" . The buyer (now in possession of the
vehicle) is demanding i get a title for him. Well, his Mother is.
They really desire a full refund.
any legal opinions on this.
reference to a statute covering sales in Arizona?
Fun quandary
They threatened to kick my #ss if i don't take back the bike...hehe
Is it illegal to sell an atv without the Title?
ckelly@qwest.net
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I sold an ATV (1986 three wheeler) to a 16 Yr. old in Arizona. He and
his adult companion took possession of the ATV in the adults truck. I
received cash and had the 16 year old sign Two copies of the Bill of
sale (with "AS IS" highlighted). I fully explained that this was
without a "title paper" . The buyer (now in possession of the
vehicle) is demanding i get a title for him. Well, his Mother is.
They really desire a full refund.
any legal opinions on this.
reference to a statute covering sales in Arizona?
Fun quandary
They threatened to kick my #ss if i don't take back the bike...hehe
Maybe they can kick your #ss anyway, legally-speaking.
A minor cannot enter into a legally binding contract without
parental consent. Just because he had an adult companion
along, doesn't mean anything.
Don
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In article <iv9bgvct5d3t5g18op1dh9d6o6d0dtvuv4@4ax.com>,
"Stuart O. Bronstein" <stu@lexregia.com> wrote:
I don't practice in Arizona, so there may be a specific statute there
I'm missing. But in general when you do business with someone under
the age of majority, the contract is voidable by the minor.
If they talk to a lawyer, there's a good chance they will be told
that they can force you to take back the ATV and refund his money.
So the choice would be yours - take it back, or give get them a good
title.
This has come up more than once in this thread; what are the limits on
what a 16 year old can return and demand their money back? At, for
example, the local music, clothing, or home electronics store?
How dangerous is it to sell to someone under 18?
Jerry
--
It Isn't Murder If They're Yankees
http://www.ItIsntMurder.com/
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In article <iv9bgvct5d3t5g18op1dh9d6o6d0dtvuv4@4ax.com>,
"Stuart O. Bronstein" <stu@lexregia.com> wrote:
This has come up more than once in this thread; what are the limits on
what a 16 year old can return and demand their money back? At, for
example, the local music, clothing, or home electronics store?
How dangerous is it to sell to someone under 18?
A lot depends not only on where you live and the actual age of the minor,
but also on what you're selling. It's quite reasonable to sell groceries,
clothing, stereo equipment, CDs and DVDs to a teenager. What would be
unreasonable would be to sell a teenager a new car, a house, expensive
jewelry, etc., or to sell expensive goods to a preteen, without a parent
present to give consent. (Even if they're paying cash.) When it comes to
signing contracts for purchases, you're in an entirely different area, and
most jurisdictions will hesitate to allow enforcement of a contract entered
into with a minor without a parent's co-signature. There are also legal
restrictions on a few things, such as selling firearms or explosives, but
that's another matter.
Eliyahu
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[snip]
This has come up more than once in this thread; what are the limits on
what a 16 year old can return and demand their money back? At, for
example, the local music, clothing, or home electronics store?
How dangerous is it to sell to someone under 18?
Jerry
If you sell almost anything to a minor, except a "necessary of life",
the minor can rescind at any time, up to some reasonable time after he
or she reaches majority. This isn't a major problem for things minors
typically buy, because a merchant in books, music, clothing, snacks,
or the like can absorb the occasional rescission as a cost of doing
business, and not many minors are likely to want to (or be forced to)
rescind such purchases.
A private seller of a motor vehicle, though, is at considerably
greater risk -- both that the minor is likely to rescind (usually, as
soon as his or her parents find out) and that the rescission will
force you to return enough money to hurt your wallet and be once again
saddled with a vehicle you thought you'd sold.
--
Not a lawyer,
Chris Green
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Jerry Stratton:
This has come up more than once in this thread; what are the limits on
what a 16 year old can return and demand their money back? At, for
example, the local music, clothing, or home electronics store?
How dangerous is it to sell to someone under 18?
Eliyahu Rooff:
A lot depends not only on where you live and the actual age of the minor,
but also on what you're selling. It's quite reasonable to sell groceries,
clothing, stereo equipment, CDs and DVDs to a teenager.
I'm not sure how recent revisions to the UCC may have changed this,
but the old rule was that you could sell "necessaries" to a minor.
Note that's "necessaries", not "necessities"; it covers a lot more.
Not just food and clothing, but education, for example. And
"necessaries" also depends on how well off the minor is. A teenager
who is heir-apparent to Bill Gates could buy designer clothes, for
example, and the sale would probably "stick".
It would be hard to justify selling stereo equipment as "necessaries",
but given what's usual for modern times a court might uphold the sale.
Also, the rules are (were?) different for a teenager than for a child
of 10 or under. A young child child could revoke the sale and not
even have to return the merchandise. A teenager would be required to
return the merchandise, if possible. Intentional or grossly negligent
destruction/loss of the merchandise would not let himer off the hook.
Say, for instance, you sold a motorcycle to a teenaged minor. Heesh
takes reasonably good care of it, but after a few months decides it
was a mistake and wants to return it. Chances are you would have to
take it back. Except that if the minor is working or going to school
and the distance is too far for travel on foot or, e.g., bicycle, the
motorcycle might be a "necessary" for that minor.
If the item is a "necessary" and the terms are reasonable, the contract
would probably be enforceable, even if it called for payment in the
future (e.g. an installment sale).
This is for discussion purposes only, and is not legal advice. I'm
not a lawyer. If you want legal advice, hire a lawyer.
--
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and
to the republic which it established, one nation from many peoples, promising
liberty and justice for all.
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Threats to my personal property and me get me thinking justice.
If I'm reasonably sure I'm legally and morally right I'll go the
distance.
I Will know the law regarding this type of transaction in Arizona.
Often times it cost me but that's the tuition at the school of hard
knocks. Smiling all the way...
Well, if you're serious about taking it all the way, then do it. You
have the cash in your hand, let them take you to court to get it back.
If you really want to make it hard for them, many states allow legal
representation in small claims court... hire some good representation
and watch these people flounder when they realize that this ain't "The
People's Court."
If they win, appeal to Circuit Court and make them spend even more.
If all we're talking about here is $1500, it's a lose-lose situation
for them if they want to get all lawyer-happy about this. As you've
pointed out, your stakes are pretty low, so you hold all the cards
here.
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