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Hello,
I have a case management meeting concerning breach of contract with a
bank that issued a credit card to me. The meeting is with a judge and
the plaintiff.
The questions I have are:
1. Does a judges order to pay the debt and lawyers fees prevent me
from filing for bankruptcy?
2. Do banks make money from my bankruptcy? I ask this because
I was advised to file for bankruptcy by a bill collector who works
for the bank which I owe the money.
Circumstances: I bought a book 'How to Get Out of Debt, Stay Out of
Debt & Live Prosperously' by Jerrold Mundis. This book advised me to
pay the banks according a budget. The budget is less than the minimum
payments the banks accept. The book says the banks will then sue and
they have. I want to pay the debt but not the lawyer fees. The net
outcome, according to free legal counsel, will be the banks will be
forced to accept my payments. I will be burdened with thousands of
dollars more in legal expenses.
How can I get out of debt when the banks keep piling it on?
I have to pay 26% interest, late fees, over limit fees and lawyer
fees. Do the banks want people to go bankrupt? I do not want
bankruptcy but enough is enough. I have shown good faith to pay my
debt but I am shown no mercy by the banks. I will not pay unjust
expenses when I can easily file for bankruptcy and pay the banks
little or nothing. What is just for both sides?
Thanks for any advice
Mark Stephan
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Mark:
1. Does a judges order to pay the debt and lawyers fees prevent me
from filing for bankruptcy?
No.
2. Do banks make money from my bankruptcy? I ask this because
I was advised to file for bankruptcy by a bill collector who works
for the bank which I owe the money.
No, though they can write off the loss on their taxes.
Circumstances: I bought a book 'How to Get Out of Debt, Stay Out of
Debt & Live Prosperously' by Jerrold Mundis. This book advised me to
pay the banks according a budget. The budget is less than the minimum
payments the banks accept. The book says the banks will then sue and
they have. I want to pay the debt but not the lawyer fees. The net
outcome, according to free legal counsel, will be the banks will be
forced to accept my payments. I will be burdened with thousands of
dollars more in legal expenses.
The book is wrong. Your agreement with the credit card companies (ccc)
provides that if they sue you, you pay their attorney fees. The ccc are not
obligated to follow your budget, or to accept only that which you are able
to pay.
How can I get out of debt when the banks keep piling it on?
I have to pay 26% interest, late fees, over limit fees and lawyer
fees.
The short answer is that you do what you are planning to do, that is, file
for bankruptcy.
Do the banks want people to go bankrupt?
They really don't care, as far as individual people are concerned. They are
trying to get the bankruptcy code amended to make it far more difficult,
expensive and (in many cases) impossible for people to file for bankruptcy.
This is their "solution."
I do not want
bankruptcy but enough is enough. I have shown good faith to pay my
debt but I am shown no mercy by the banks.
They couldn't care less about your good faith attempts, your past payment
history or anything other than getting paid.
--
Brett
*****************************************************************
* Personal Injury/Malpractice Bankruptcy *
* *
* BRETT WEISS, P.C. *
* Attorneys at Law *
* Maryland, D.C. and Federal Bars *
* lawyer@erols.com *
* http://www.erols.com/lawyer *
* *
* Small Business Estates & Estate Planning *
*****************************************************************
The Small Print: This response is for discussion purposes only. It isn't
meant to be legal advice and you shouldn't treat it as such. If you want
legal advice, speak with a local lawyer familiar with your state's laws who
can review *all* of the facts and the law applicable to your situation.
*****************************************************************
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mark wrote:
Circumstances: I bought a book 'How to Get Out of Debt, Stay Out of
Debt & Live Prosperously' by Jerrold Mundis. This book advised me to
pay the banks according a budget. The budget is less than the minimum
payments the banks accept. The book says the banks will then sue and
they have. I want to pay the debt but not the lawyer fees. The net
outcome, according to free legal counsel, will be the banks will be
forced to accept my payments. I will be burdened with thousands of
dollars more in legal expenses.
What "free legal counsel"? The book? (Which, by the way, is
wrong on many points, according to lawyers I talk to regularly.)
The "correct" thing to do would have been to tell the banks that
you're in financial trouble and request a reduced payment schedule.
Of course, any indication that you're in financial trouble (including
not paying on time) could cause the bank to declare the entire
balance due immediately.
You need a lawyer. You've made some serious mistakes, but MAY
be able to get out of trouble. I think it likely that the credit
card debt now may not be dischargable in bankruptcy.
--
This account is subject to a persistent MS Blaster and SWEN attack.
I think I've got the problem resolved, but, if you E-mail me
and it bounces, a second try might work.
However, please reply in newsgroup.
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Subject: Bankruptcy - Justice? From: pobox3000@excite.com (mark) Date: 12/24/2003 8:56 AM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: <pnbjuv45kvsum2lli1t6kglko4h73o044n@4ax.com> Hello, I have a case management meeting concerning breach of contract with a bank that issued a credit card to me. The meeting is with a judge and the plaintiff. The questions I have are: 1. Does a judges order to pay the debt and lawyers fees prevent me from filing for bankruptcy?
The debt and the legal fees (if any) would be dischargeable most likely. If
the judgment is already rendered--still dischargeable.
2. Do banks make money from my bankruptcy? I ask this because
I was advised to file for bankruptcy by a bill collector who works
for the bank which I owe the money.
Well, that depends on your assets. If you file Chapter 7, any assets you have
that are non-exempt will be divided among your creditors, with thr secured
debts having priority.
Circumstances: I bought a book 'How to Get Out of Debt, Stay Out of
Debt & Live Prosperously' by Jerrold Mundis. This book advised me to
pay the banks according a budget. The budget is less than the minimum
payments the banks accept. The book says the banks will then sue and
they have. I want to pay the debt but not the lawyer fees.
If the judge awards the legal fees, then they become a debt. But a
dischargeable one.
The net
outcome, according to free legal counsel, will be the banks will be
forced to accept my payments. I will be burdened with thousands of
dollars more in legal expenses.
Not if you file for bankruptcy.
How can I get out of debt when the banks keep piling it on?
I have to pay 26% interest, late fees, over limit fees and lawyer
fees. Do the banks want people to go bankrupt? I do not want
bankruptcy but enough is enough. I have shown good faith to pay my
debt but I am shown no mercy by the banks. I will not pay unjust
expenses when I can easily file for bankruptcy and pay the banks
little or nothing. What is just for both sides?
Well, you said it--if the banks won't accept a minimum payment that you can
afford, then they are risking bankruptcy on your part--and will get perhaps
nothing.
"THE EXODUS CHRONICLES: Beliefs, Legends & Rumors from Antiquity Regarding the
Exodus of the Jews from Egypt" by Marianne Luban
You'll never think about the Biblical Book of Exodus in the same way again!
http://www.geocities.com/scribelist/Exodus2.html
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Hello,
I have a case management meeting concerning breach of contract with a
bank that issued a credit card to me. The meeting is with a judge and
the plaintiff.
Go to nolo.com and/or read their book on bankruptcy at your public
library.
Federal bankrutpcy law, by the US Constitution, pre-empts state law on
debt.
Most debt consoldiation depends on the creditors cooperating. It is in
their interest to do so -- since if you file for bankruptcy they may
get zero. But arrogance is eternal, and many or most creditors do
stupid things.
Good luck.
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mark wrote:
Hello,
I have a case management meeting concerning breach of contract with a
bank that issued a credit card to me. The meeting is with a judge and
the plaintiff.
The questions I have are:
<snip>
How can I get out of debt when the banks keep piling it on?
I have to pay 26% interest, late fees, over limit fees and lawyer
fees. Do the banks want people to go bankrupt? I do not want
bankruptcy but enough is enough. I have shown good faith to pay my
debt but I am shown no mercy by the banks. I will not pay unjust
expenses when I can easily file for bankruptcy and pay the banks
little or nothing. What is just for both sides?
Thanks for any advice
Mark Stephan
Without a rough idea how much debt you are talking about, and what you
consider "breach of contract" on behalf of the bank it's pretty
impossible to advise anything here.
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In article <g4oruvcd8j102sr827n682q4eogbf4rh29@4ax.com>,
Brett Weiss <lawyer@erols.com> wrote:
Mark:
2. Do banks make money from my bankruptcy? I ask this because
I was advised to file for bankruptcy by a bill collector who works
for the bank which I owe the money.
No, though they can write off the loss on their taxes.
If it's a bank, they almost certainly take a reserve anyway. More
likely, the bill collector's record looks OK if a client files for
bankruptcy ("It's not my fault I couldn't get water from a stone"),
not so good if the client just doesn't pay.
Circumstances: I bought a book 'How to Get Out of Debt, Stay Out of
Debt & Live Prosperously' by Jerrold Mundis. This book advised me to
pay the banks according a budget. The budget is less than the minimum
payments the banks accept. The book says the banks will then sue and
they have. I want to pay the debt but not the lawyer fees.
Will the book pay the lawyer fees? Then why did you trust it?
The net outcome, according to free legal counsel, will be the banks
will be forced to accept my payments. I will be burdened with
thousands of dollars more in legal expenses.
The banks might "accept your payments" but that doesn't mean they
won't want the rest of what you should have paid, too.
The book is wrong. Your agreement with the credit card companies (ccc)
provides that if they sue you, you pay their attorney fees. The ccc are not
obligated to follow your budget, or to accept only that which you are able
to pay.
However, if you'd originally asked them nicely (and came up with a
budget showing that you couldn't afford to pay more), they might have
been willing to offer better terms to keep you out of bankruptcy.
Do the banks want people to go bankrupt?
They really don't care, as far as individual people are concerned.
Sometimes they might want it, "to encourage the others".
I do not want
bankruptcy but enough is enough. I have shown good faith to pay my
debt but I am shown no mercy by the banks.
They couldn't care less about your good faith attempts, your past payment
history or anything other than getting paid.
They actually do care about "good faith attempts" but they aren't
likely to believe that following some book's advice to make payments
less than the minimum without even asking them is showing good faith.
Seth
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On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 14:44:05 -0500, marianneluban@aol.comnospam
(MarianneLuban) wrote:
. . . .
No. And if and when you do, the entire legal process has to come to a halt.
The debt and the legal fees (if any) would be dischargeable most likely. If
the judgment is already rendered--still dischargeable.
. . . .
Caveat: In most states, the judgment creates a lien on real property
owned by the debtor within a specified geographic area. This lien may
well survive the bankruptcy.
Daniel Reitman
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You need a lawyer. You've made some serious mistakes, but MAY
be able to get out of trouble. I think it likely that the credit
card debt now may not be dischargable in bankruptcy.
Why do you say that?
"THE EXODUS CHRONICLES: Beliefs, Legends & Rumors from Antiquity Regarding the
Exodus of the Jews from Egypt" by Marianne Luban
You'll never think about the Biblical Book of Exodus in the same way again!
http://www.geocities.com/scribelist/Exodus2.html
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Subject: Re: Bankruptcy - Justice?
From: "Daniel R. Reitman" dreitman@spiritone.com
Date: 12/29/2003 10:49 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <6mt0vv0u539tqfbetlufr1k7ks3tig4en9@4ax.com>
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 14:44:05 -0500, marianneluban@aol.comnospam
(MarianneLuban) wrote:
Caveat: In most states, the judgment creates a lien on real property
owned by the debtor within a specified geographic area. This lien may
well survive the bankruptcy.
By that yardstick, any judgment would survive bankruptcy. I don't see how it
can unless it belongs to a matter that is an
exception to discharge. In bankruptcy, secured debts allow the creditor to
confiscate the property--like a car on which money is still owed (unless
perhaps the sum owed falls within the amount allowed by the state or federal
exemptions for the debtor's interest in an automobile). But I don't think a
judgment creditor can automatically claim that his unexcepted judgment
constitutes a lien on any of the debtor's property. But if you can cite a
case where this occurred, it would be interesting to see it.
"THE EXODUS CHRONICLES: Beliefs, Legends & Rumors from Antiquity Regarding the
Exodus of the Jews from Egypt" by Marianne Luban
You'll never think about the Biblical Book of Exodus in the same way again!
http://www.geocities.com/scribelist/Exodus2.html
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"Daniel R. Reitman" <dreitman@spiritone.com> wrote:
marianneluban@aol.comnospam (MarianneLuban) wrote:
Caveat: In most states, the judgment creates a lien on real
property owned by the debtor within a specified geographic area.
This lien may well survive the bankruptcy.
It may. I had a case a while ago in which this kind of thing
happened, but for some reason I can't remember, the lien was
technically valid but essentially unenforceable. Perhaps it was
inferior to other liens and there was no equity left for it to attach
to.
Stu
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MarianneLuban wrote:
Why do you say that?
Fraud? Making the partial payment offer without intention
of following it if accepted?
--
This account is subject to a persistent MS Blaster and SWEN attack.
I think I've got the problem resolved, but, if you E-mail me
and it bounces, a second try might work.
However, please reply in newsgroup.
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Subject: Re: Bankruptcy - Justice? From: "Arthur L. Rubin" ronnirubin@sprintmail.com Date: 1/2/2004 6:10 AM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: <pmuavvs87m0g0qbafpqkd1a7ka2k6mk6b4@4ax.com> MarianneLuban wrote: Fraud? Making the partial payment offer without intention of following it if accepted?
OP made payments that were less than the minimum, how does the creditor prove
fraud there? Yes, he did follow the advice of a book, but this book still told
him he was liable to be sued. All the OP attempted to do was to avoid paying
the creditor's legal fees. The book did not tell him that he would be able to
avoid paying the judgment for the monies that he owed to the ccc. Anyway, even
if the ccc knew of the OP's tactics--which is doubtful--how do they prove fraud
as long as the OP continued to make less than minimum payments--and they still
extended him credit (if they did)? On the face of it, making any payments at
all shows better faith than none.
Alright, the OP showed poor judgment, but he is not obliged to explain that to
the bankruptcy court. He will be under oath when the trustee examines him, but
I doubt the trustee will inquire too deeply into why he made those less than
minimum payments. It would appear to me that people do this all the time,
mostly in good faith--only to get more "late charges" levied against them.
That is the ccc's option--to pile up the debt so that it becomes even more
difficult for the debtor to pay it off. They may think it works in their
favor--but they do it knowing that bankruptcy is an option of the debtor.
In a possible adversarial proceeding in the bankruptcy court, I do not see the
ccc having any sort of strong position to have the debt/judgment declared
non-dischargeable due to fraud (unless there are factors unknown to us here),
as neither the debt nor the legal fees come under the non-dischargeable items
according to bankruptcy law. Any agreement with a ccc is a contract, no matter
what the fine print says. But contracts are not non-dischargeable. Making
less than minimum payments on a debt does not constitute fraud nor does making
an agreement with the ccc to accept smaller payments and then defaulting on the
debt, anyway. Not in bankruptcy. The bankruptcy court sees all kinds of
people who have done foolish things but exists to give them a fresh start.
The bankruptcy court is obligated to follow the bankruptcy code when it comes
to exemptions to discharge. That is my take on this matter. Under the
circumstances, if I were the debtor and insolvent, I would take my chances in
bankruptcy.
Disclaimer: I am not an attorney. This is for discussion purposes only and is
not to be construed as legal advice. For legal advice, it is best to consult
an attorney.
"THE EXODUS CHRONICLES: Beliefs, Legends & Rumors from Antiquity Regarding the
Exodus of the Jews from Egypt" by Marianne Luban
You'll never think about the Biblical Book of Exodus in the same way again!
http://www.geocities.com/scribelist/Exodus2.html
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But I don't think a judgment creditor can automatically
claim that his unexcepted judgment constitutes a lien
on any of the debtor's property. But if you can cite a
case where this occurred, it would be interesting to see it.
The creditor doesn't have to do anything. *All* liens survive bankruptcy,
unless avoided through an adversary proceeding in the bankruptcy case (such
as under 11 USC 522).
--
Brett
*****************************************************************
* Personal Injury/Malpractice Bankruptcy *
* *
* BRETT WEISS, P.C. *
* Attorneys at Law *
* Maryland, D.C. and Federal Bars *
* lawyer@erols.com *
* http://www.erols.com/lawyer *
* *
* Small Business Estates & Estate Planning *
*****************************************************************
The Small Print: This response is for discussion purposes only. It isn't
meant to be legal advice and you shouldn't treat it as such. If you want
legal advice, speak with a local lawyer familiar with your state's laws who
can review *all* of the facts and the law applicable to your situation.
*****************************************************************
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Subject: Re: Bankruptcy - Justice?
From: "Brett Weiss" lawyer@erols.com
Date: 1/5/2004 5:15 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <8poivvghmhv6ht1q3ns8bj44mhqt3ngop9@4ax.com>
The creditor doesn't have to do anything. *All* liens survive bankruptcy,
unless avoided through an adversary proceeding in the bankruptcy case (such
as under 11 USC 522).
http://profs.lp.findlaw.com/bankruptcy/bankruptcy_8.html
"Do I have to file bankruptcy before my creditor gets a judgment?
In general a debt represented by a judgment is just as dischargeable as the
same debt prior to entry of judgment. Note, however:
A judgment lien that attaches to assets is only avoidable if it impairs an
exemption.
If the complaint alleged fraud or other grounds that would make a debt non
dischargeable in bankruptcy, doing nothing may prevent you from later
contesting the facts (i.e. you may be unable to get a bankruptcy court to hear
your side of the fraud charge in a non dischargeability action).
In the case of debts that are unliquidated (uncertain in amount), a judgment
will liquidate the debt: that may have the effect of increasing your debts
beyond the eligibility requirements of Chapter 13, with its "super discharge"
and inexpensive reorganization possibilities.
Will bankruptcy stop garnishment on a judgment against me?
Bankruptcy will terminate garnishments as to wages earned after the filing of
the bankruptcy.
Wages earned before the filing may be recoverable from the sheriff or the
creditor if those wages would otherwise have been exempt.
The only possible exception concerns child support collections:
in such cases it depends on what chapter bankruptcy case is selected and
whether the support first came due before the commencement of the case, etc.
"THE EXODUS CHRONICLES: Beliefs, Legends & Rumors from Antiquity Regarding the
Exodus of the Jews from Egypt" by Marianne Luban
You'll never think about the Biblical Book of Exodus in the same way again!
http://www.geocities.com/scribelist/Exodus2.html
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"Brett Weiss" <lawyer@erols.com> wrote:
But I don't think a judgment creditor can automatically
claim that his unexcepted judgment constitutes a lien
on any of the debtor's property. But if you can cite a
case where this occurred, it would be interesting to see it.
The creditor doesn't have to do anything. *All* liens survive
bankruptcy, unless avoided through an adversary proceeding in
the bankruptcy case (such as under 11 USC 522).
They certainly may technically survive, but they may be meaningless.
For example, as I recall, if a lien isn't perfected within a specific
period of time it does not relate back to the time the debt was
incurred. The bankruptcy trustee has the status of a hypothetical
lien creditor who has priority over such liens.
Stu
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The creditor doesn't have to do anything. *All* liens survive
bankruptcy, unless avoided through an adversary proceeding in
the bankruptcy case (such as under 11 USC 522).
They certainly may technically survive, but they may be meaningless.
For example, as I recall, if a lien isn't perfected within a specific
period of time it does not relate back to the time the debt was
incurred. The bankruptcy trustee has the status of a hypothetical
lien creditor who has priority over such liens.
Stu:
The problems are that:
1. Affirmative action must be taken to avoid the lien.
2. In most cases, the trustee won't take that action, because it won't
benefit the bankruptcy estate.
3. The debtor can't afford to pay for a lien avoidance action.
The result is that the lien is still there after discharge in the vast
majority of bankruptcy cases. In most cases, it doesn't make economic sense
for the creditor to file a replevin action, but I've been involved in many
cases in which it does.
--
Brett
*****************************************************************
* Personal Injury/Malpractice Bankruptcy *
* *
* BRETT WEISS, P.C. *
* Attorneys at Law *
* Maryland, D.C. and Federal Bars *
* lawyer@brettweiss.com *
* http://www.brettweiss.com *
* *
* Small Business Estates & Estate Planning *
*****************************************************************
The Small Print: This response is for discussion purposes only. It isn't
meant to be legal advice and you shouldn't treat it as such. If you want
legal advice, speak with a local lawyer familiar with your state's laws who
can review *all* of the facts and the law applicable to your situation.
*****************************************************************
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