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Any rights for victims of US government non-criminal actions?



ndiamond@despammed.com
2/23/2005 8:38:45 AM


For some reason I had an impression that when the US
government takes legal (presumably) action to deprive a
person of life, liberty, or property, the person would
have certain rights. Just now I am rereading parts of
the US constitution and it seems I was badly mistaken.
Can anyone confirm please?
Under a certain condition, some of the promises that
Amendment VI makes to the accused are a public trial,
by an impartial jury in the State where the crime
shall have been [allegedly?] committed, to be informed
of the nature and cause of the accusation, and the have
the Assistance of Counsel. But the condition is that
the prosecution be criminal. In the past in this
newsgroup I have learned that deprivation of property
and sometimes deprivation of liberty are non-criminal
actions. So in these cases the accused has no right
to a public trial, has no right to be informed of the
nature and cause of the accusation, and has no right
to counsel? The US government is allowed to seize a
person's money without even informing the person of
the details of the charge and the date and place when
the trial was held?
Amendment V says that due process of law is required,
but this seems to provide no protection. When the
victim is not even informed of the date and place
when the trial was held, a default judgement seems
like a pretty obvious outcome, right?
Does the victim have any rights at all? Is there any
way to find out the details of the charge, to bring
about a retrial in the State where the crime was
allegedly committed, to be informed of the time and
place of the retrial, to be present and present a
defence at the retrial?
There is at least one situation where the US government
can legally deprive a person of property without due
process of law, notably Amendment XVI. But when there
is no assertion that the seized money is a tax and no
assertion that the reason for seizure was income, that
seems pretty irrelevant. Are there other situations?
 
 
"Stuart A. Bronstein"
2/24/2005 12:14:07 PM


ndiamond@despammed.com wrote:
Under a certain condition, some of the promises that
Amendment VI makes to the accused are a public trial,
by an impartial jury in the State where the crime
shall have been [allegedly?] committed, to be informed
of the nature and cause of the accusation, and the have
the Assistance of Counsel. But the condition is that
the prosecution be criminal. In the past in this
newsgroup I have learned that deprivation of property
and sometimes deprivation of liberty are non-criminal
actions.
Well, it can be depending on the offense and the potential
penalties.
So in these cases the accused has no right
to a public trial, has no right to be informed of the
nature and cause of the accusation, and has no right
to counsel? The US government is allowed to seize a
person's money without even informing the person of
the details of the charge and the date and place when
the trial was held?
In a civil action by the government (e.g. a forfeiture action to
recover drug money or property used to commit a crime), the
government is still required to give "due process." Unless there
are particular statues that define due process differently for that
specific situation, he will still have the rights you enumerated.
But he will probably not be entitled to have the government pay for
his lawyer if he can't afford one.
Amendment V says that due process of law is required,
but this seems to provide no protection. When the
victim is not even informed of the date and place
when the trial was held, a default judgement seems
like a pretty obvious outcome, right?
No, wrong.
Stu
 
 
Thomas Anantharaman
3/2/2005 6:11:10 PM


ndiamond@despammed.com wrote:
The US government is allowed to seize a
person's money without even informing the person of
the details of the charge and the date and place when
the trial was held?

The US constitution originally promised a Jury trial in all Federal
civil proceedings over $20, which also applied to forfeiture
proceedings, but since they forgot about inflation the Supreme Court had
to "reinterpret" this right to avoid overburdening the Federal Courts :
they chose to simply eliminate the right to jury trial in Federal civil
cases.
 
 
"Arthur L. Rubin"
3/6/2005 10:20:54 PM


Thomas Anantharaman wrote:
ndiamond@despammed.com wrote:
The US constitution originally promised a Jury trial in all Federal
civil proceedings over $20, which also applied to forfeiture
proceedings,
Actually, I don't think it DID apply to forfeiture procedings. The
fiction is that it's a civil suit against the property -- and only
the property would have a right to a jury trial.
--
This account is subject to a persistent MS Blaster and SWEN attack.
I think I've got the problem resolved, but, if you E-mail me
and it bounces, a second try might work.
However, please reply in newsgroup.
 
 
"Stuart A. Bronstein"
3/9/2005 10:24:10 PM


"Arthur L. Rubin" <ronnirubin@sprintmail.com> wrote:
Thomas Anantharaman wrote:
Actually, I don't think it DID apply to forfeiture procedings.
The fiction is that it's a civil suit against the property --
and only the property would have a right to a jury trial.
The 7th Amendment says that a jury is required for "suits at common
law." If a forfeiture proceeding was not a part of common law in
1791, the provision doesn't apply.
Stu
 
 
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