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I agreed to host an event for the members of a non-profit organization
in our house. Everything is safe around here, and we had more guests in
the past than we are expecting now. However, I can easily imagine that
if some accident happens, my liability could be well beyond our home
insurance coverage. Still, I dont like to circulate any disclaimers to
be signed by participants.
I own a corporation that has negligible amount of assets. I could issue
a corporate decision to assume the cost of the event (and not claim it
for tax purposes). Then, I would include in the event announcement a
statement that my corporation offers the events hosting as its
community service (free of charge).
Would this approach absolve me completely? (I am in Minnesota).
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Mike Landorf <admin@forum.edina.mn.u_s> wrote:
I own a corporation that has negligible amount of assets. I could
issue a corporate decision to assume the cost of the event (and
not claim it for tax purposes). Then, I would include in the event
announcement a statement that my corporation offers the events
hosting as its community service (free of charge).
Would this approach absolve me completely? (I am in Minnesota).
No, of course not. You can't relieve yourself of your personal
liability like that.
On the other hand if you do this in your capacity as an employee of
your corporation, its liability insurance (if you have it) may cover
you. But that's really the most you could ask for.
Stu
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Mike Landorf <admin@forum.edina.mn.u_s> writes:
I agreed to host an event for the members of a non-profit organization
in our house. Everything is safe around here, and we had more guests in
the past than we are expecting now. However, I can easily imagine that
if some accident happens, my lia'td be well beyond our home
to be signed by participants.
I own a corporation that has negligible amount of assets. I could issue
a corporate decision to assume the cost of the event (and not claim it
for tax purposes). Then, I would include in the event announcement a
statement that my corporation offers the event'shosting as its
community service (free of charge).
Would this approach absolve me completely? (I am in Minnesota).
Just speaking generally (and also IANAL), I can't see how it could.
If the accident is because of something *you* did, or because *you*
failed to do something you should have done, then regardless of
anything else, you can always be sued and held liable for your own bad
acts (this is the same reason why one-man corporations/LLCs don't
provide the liability protection many people think they do).
--
Rich Carreiro rlc-news@rlcarr.com
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On Mar 20, 7:23 am, Mike Landorf <ad...@forum.edina.mn.u_s> wrote:
I agreed to host an event for the members of a non-profit organization
in our house. Everything is safe around here, and we had more guests in
the past than we are expecting now. However, I can easily imagine that
if some accident happens, my liability could be well beyond our home
insurance coverage.
First of all, if you feel your homeowners liability insurance is
inadequate, get more, or perhaps better, get an "umbrella" liability
policy that will cover you for just about _any_ kind of liability
(auto, home, etc.) in excess of your basic coverages. Talk to your
insurance agent _before_ the event happens. Umbrella policies can be
quite affordable and if you are routinely having large groups of
guests in your home for your own private events as well as on behalf
of organizations, I don't understand why this charity event is any
different in terms of liability exposure for you than any of the other
parties you have hosted in the past. If the liability coverage you
carry isn't at least equivalent to the value of your home and its
contents -- and depending on what other assets you own, perhaps double
or triple that -- you are putting your personal assets at risk if a
catastrophe happens that is in any way your fault.
Secondly, the NPO you are hosting may have its own liability policy
that will provide coverage for you while hosting an event for the
organization. Check that out with the leadership that asked you to
do this -- next time, you'll want to do that before agreeing to host
the event, but it's not too late to ask now.
Still, I don't like to circulate any disclaimers to
be signed by participants.
It does sort of put a chill on the evening. And YMMV but such
disclaimers may not be enforceable anyway. If this is a fundraiser,
the last thing you (and the NPO) want to do is scare away potential
donors by making them sign away their legal rights before they can
come to the event.
I own a corporation that has negligible amount of assets. I could issue
a corporate decision to assume the cost of the event (and not claim it
for tax purposes). Then, I would include in the event announcement a
statement that my corporation offers the event's hosting as its
community service (free of charge).
Would this approach absolve me completely? (I am in Minnesota).
I doubt it. This is a common misperception. If you, personally,
are the one doing the acts which an injury victim later claims were
negligent and were the cause of his injury, it doesn't matter whether
you did so as a private person or as an officer or agent of your
corporation. A person is always personally liable for his own torts;
the only thing the corporation shields you from is, the risk of having
your personal assets be seized to pay for a tort committed by one of
your corporate employees or agents without your personal
participation. If, say, your dump truck driver T-bones a school bus
and kills 2 dozen kids, the corporation, and its own insurance, are
all that would be at risk there. But if you were driving the truck
yourself when the unthinkable happened, the corporate shell would
provide no liability protection to you.
--
This posting is for discussion purposes, not professional advice.
Anything you post on this Newsgroup is public information.
I am not your lawyer, and you are not my client in any specific legal
matter.
For confidential professional advice, consult your own lawyer in a
private communication.
Mike Jacobs
LAW OFFICE OF W. MICHAEL JACOBS
10440 Little Patuxent Pkwy #300
Columbia, MD 21044
(tel) 410-740-5685 (fax) 410-740-4300
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I agreed to host an event for the members of a non-profit organization
in our house. Everything is safe around here, and we had more guests in
the past than we are expecting now. However, I can easily imagine that
if some accident happens, my liability could be well beyond our home
insurance coverage. Still, I dont like to circulate any disclaimers to
be signed by participants.
I own a corporation that has negligible amount of assets. I could issue
a corporate decision to assume the cost of the event (and not claim it
for tax purposes). Then, I would include in the event announcement a
statement that my corporation offers the events hosting as its
community service (free of charge).
Would this approach absolve me completely? (I am in Minnesota).
My guess is that YOU own the house, so in case of an accident, YOU will
be sued (perhaps alongside your corporation). If the corporation owns
the house, you might escape liability. But you could lose the house
(although if it's mortgaged to the hilt, they might not get much).
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In article <o7i4u315djfl5843gr51qr7a36k7ql0fr2@4ax.com>,
Mike Landorf <admin@forum.edina.mn.u_s> wrote:
I agreed to host an event for the members of a non-profit organization
in our house. Everything is safe around here, and we had more guests in
the past than we are expecting now. However, I can easily imagine that
if some accident happens, my liability could be well beyond our home
insurance coverage. Still, I don't like to circulate any disclaimers to
be signed by participants.
I own a corporation that has negligible amount of assets. I could issue
a corporate decision to assume the cost of the event (and not claim it
for tax purposes). Then, I would include in the event announcement a
statement that my corporation offers the event's hosting as its
community service (free of charge).
Would this approach absolve me completely? (I am in Minnesota).
For an answer you can 'rely' on, you will need to consult professionally
with competent legal counsel in your locale.
That said, the answer to your question, _as_asked_ (".. completely?") is
almost assuredly "no".
Generally, "things the event host _did_" that were shown to be responsible
for an accident are a liability of the host.
However, 'intrinsic conditions' in the _site_ that were responsible for an
accident are the liability of the property _owner_.
Pretty much the only way, you, as the property owner can be 'completely'
protected is to have an 'indemnification and hold harmless' from "someone'
(the event 'host', or the organization for whom the event is being held)
with "deep enough" pockets to defend, or pay off, anything that _does_
arise. Worst-case scenario _there_ is you get sued and have to pay off,
they refuse to make good on their promises, and you have to sue _them_ to
get the damages money back -- _if_ they have it.
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Mike,
I agreed to host an event for the members of a non-profit organization
in our house. Everything is safe around here, and we had more guests in
the past than we are expecting now. However, I can easily imagine that
if some accident happens, my liability could be well beyond our home
insurance coverage. Still, I don?Tt like to circulate any disclaimers to
be signed by participants.
I own a corporation that has negligible amount of assets. I could issue
a corporate decision to assume the cost of the event (and not claim it
for tax purposes). Then, I would include in the event announcement a
statement that my corporation offers the event?Ts hosting as its
community service (free of charge).
Would this approach absolve me completely? (I am in Minnesota).
I don't see how you are absolved. Your corporation, which does not have
any assets, rents out your house. A guest trips on an uneven paving stone
and twists his ankle. Why would the owner of the house not be held liable?
You're just creating another entity to be sued by involving this corporation
Good luck,
Dave M.
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In article <o7i4u315djfl5843gr51qr7a36k7ql0fr2@4ax.com>,
Mike Landorf <admin@forum.edina.mn.u_s> wrote:
I own a corporation that has negligible amount of assets. I could issue
a corporate decision to assume the cost of the event (and not claim it
for tax purposes). Then, I would include in the event announcement a
statement that my corporation offers the events hosting as its
community service (free of charge).
Would this approach absolve me completely? (I am in Minnesota).
No, not at all. An injured party would sue the corporation,
plus you as the owner, and again you as the person who set up
or installed the item that caused the accident. The corporation
might be dismissed from liability, so you as the owner would be
next in line. And in any case, since you were responsible for
whatever it is that causes the issue, you can be sued personally
as the the person who committed the act.
-john-
--
======================================================================
John A. Weeks III 612-720-2854 john@johnweeks.com
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
======================================================================
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In article <o7i4u315djfl5843gr51qr7a36k7ql0fr2@4ax.com>, Mike Landorf <admin@forum.edina.mn.u_s> wrote: Generally, "things the event host _did_" that were shown to be responsible for an accident are a liability of the host.
However, 'intrinsic conditions' in the _site_ that were responsible for an
accident are the liability of the property _owner_.
I am the host and the property owner. Many good advice offered in this
thread are too late to follow for this upcoming event so I am back to
working on the disclaimer language.
How reasonable would be the following one: "As an event participant, I
should not cross into the areas marked 'Private'. I am responsible for
my own safety and any harm I can cause to others. I will not hold the
property owner hosting this event liable for any harm I sustain, unless
it was caused by his gross negligence."? Or the word "gross" would be
not enforceable?
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On Mar 22, 7:44 am, Mike Landorf <ad...@forum.edina.mn.u_s> wrote:
I agreed to host an event for the members of a non-profit organization
in our house. ...Still, I don't like to circulate any disclaimers to
be signed by participants.
Yet that is what you are now proposing to do?
I am the host and the property owner. Many good advice offered in this
thread are too late to follow for this upcoming event
Why is it "too late?" Nothing's too late until the event has already
happened. What is preventing you from increasing your own insurance
coverage, other than cost -- yet you haven't answered why this event
is different in terms of liability exposure from any of the other
large parties you have hosted in the past without worrying so much
about your liability exposure? What is preventing you from going
back to this organization right now and telling them, "either you
agree to indemnify me for any liability for hosting this event, and
include me on _your_ insurance coverage for the duration of the event,
or you will have to find a new venue?" Seems to me you have a lot of
leverage available to provide _more_ protection for your houseguests,
and just lack the backbone to use it. Instead, you want to take steps
that will result in _less_ protection for your houseguests. Remind
me not to come visit your house...
so I am back to
working on the disclaimer language.
I never did like disclaimers much, in case you can't tell, although I
have been involved in lawsuits on both sides of the issue -- defending
people who sought protection by means of such prospective waivers of
liability against suits by those injured during their events, and also
working on behalf of injury victims and trying to get courts to reject
the proffered defense of a pre-injury waiver. One thing I can tell
you for sure is, even having a _valid_ waiver in place (and that's
something that can only be determined by a court examining your exact
language and all the facts of the injury-causing occurrence) is that
it will NOT prevent you from being sued. At most, it will provide
you with a defense you can raise when you _do_ get sued; and you will
still have to hire your own lawyer, and pay him big bucks in advance,
to defend you against those claims.
Having insurance, on the other hand -- either your own, or having
coverage provided to you by the organization's policy on a per-event
basis -- will not only pay for a lawyer to defend you, they will also
pay the damages when and if any are assessed, AND they will provide
some source of recovery to victims who _are_ injured by your
negligence, rather than arbitrarily cutting off their legal rights by
a one-sided contractual disclaimer. I'm not a big fan of insurance
companies either, for lots of reasons not relevant here, but the
protection they provide is a damn sight better all around and more
fair for everybody than a contract that purports to waive important
legal rights.
The disclaimer is IMO the coward's way out unless you're talking about
far more dangerous circumstances than a typical house party, where it
is simply impossible to get adequate insurance and where any
participant ought to know (even without being required to sign
anything) that he is entering a risky endeavor and ought to have the
serious and sober intention of looking out for his own safety around
these dangerous things -- climbing around in old military airplanes at
an airshow is one example we discussed here on MLM some months ago.
How reasonable would be the following one:
Sorry, I'm not going to critique your proposed disclaimer language for
you. I recommend you get adequate insurance or force the sponsoring
organization to provide it for you. If they won't, don't hold the
event. You'd be surprised how fast they can act if you lay it on the
line.
--
This posting is for discussion purposes, not professional advice.
Anything you post on this Newsgroup is public information.
I am not your lawyer, and you are not my client in any specific legal
matter.
For confidential professional advice, consult your own lawyer in a
private communication.
Mike Jacobs
LAW OFFICE OF W. MICHAEL JACOBS
10440 Little Patuxent Pkwy #300
Columbia, MD 21044
(tel) 410-740-5685 (fax) 410-740-4300
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On Mar 22, 7:44 am, Mike Landorf <ad...@forum.edina.mn.u_s> wrote:
I agreed to host an event for the members of a non-profit organization
in our house. ...Still, I don't like to circulate any disclaimers to
be signed by participants.
Yet that is what you are now proposing to do?
Why is it "too late?" Nothing's too late until the event has already
happened. What is preventing you ...
Thank you for your care and passionate advice. I also received a
similar one via e-mail.
I made an appeal to the NPO board and they will discuss it. I expect
their decision shortly. Yes, they do carry a liability insurance for
the events but, mostly, use it when they rent a commercial property.
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On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 07:23:58 -0400, Mike Jacobs <mjacobslaw@gmail.com>
wrote:
The disclaimer is IMO the coward's way out unless you're talking about
far more dangerous circumstances than a typical house party, where it
is simply impossible to get adequate insurance and where any
participant ought to know (even without being required to sign
anything) that he is entering a risky endeavor and ought to have the
serious and sober intention of looking out for his own safety around
I once hosted a fund-raising safari, during which one attendee was
eaten by a lion and another was stomped by an elephant. The text of
the waiver form must was not very good, and the elephant victim won.
But the lion victim lost because the accompanying safari brochure said
that "Meals are included".
these dangerous things
If you are inclined to email me
for some reason, remove NOPSAM :-)
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