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My wife recently received instructions from the state prosecution or at
court to make arrangement for restitution on auto accident claim in
return for dropping an evasion charge against her. With no auto
insurance in force at the time of the accident, it would our sole
responsibility for this. However, no estimate or claim has been sent or
provided to us for nearly a month for the damaged caused. The only proof
of claim was a copy filed with the prosecutor, which could not be
legally provided to us by the court. Only the injured party could
provide the copy per court rules and there has been only limited verbal
contact by that party and it is their claim that we know the dollar
amount claimed (I only got a glimpse at a court folder of some $1600
figure but no actual estimate was handed to me) so no estimate or bill
needed to be given to us. My view on this is that no restitution can
begin without a reasonable request for paperwork be honored by the other
party. We have a return date early next month on this but I am uncertain
that any arrangement can be made given this lack of cooperation by the
other party. I have stated by intention to reasonable restitution be
made to the other party but that is only possible by seeing some
estimates or billing on the claim. Any advice?
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On Apr 17, 8:19 am, Chipman <s_chip...@att.net> wrote:
My wife recently received instructions from the state prosecution or at
court to make arrangement for restitution on auto accident claim in
return for dropping an evasion charge against her.
Your wife caused a crash, had no insurance, fled the scene, and in
addition to damaging someone else's property, she is now being charged
with a crime for her hit-and-run escapade since her attempt to evade
the law didn't work and they found her anyway; did I get that right?
The prosecutor then offered your wife a deal (i.e. a "plea bargain")
which she was free to either accept or reject: if she pays $1600 to
the court, for restitution of the damage she caused (which the court
will pass thru to the victim) rather than as a fine (which would go
into the state's treasury), the state will drop the charges. Sounds
like a pretty sweet deal to me. Yet, she's dickering over it.
With no auto
insurance in force at the time of the accident, it would our sole
responsibility for this.
Not "our", "her". You are not responsible for your wife's torts or
crimes unless you were sitting beside her in the car, urging her, "Go
for it, honey; 20 points if you hit the old lady in the sidewalk with
the shopping cart."
Need I add, it would be a great idea for you both to obtain auto
insurance now for any future crashes, even if it is not legally
mandatory per your state's law?
If you _are_ in a mandatory insurance state, your wife is lucky she
was not also charged with the separate crime of driving without
insurance.
However, no estimate or claim has been sent or
provided to us for nearly a month for the damaged caused. The only proof
of claim was a copy filed with the prosecutor, which could not be
legally provided to us by the court.
Why not? Who said so? Criminal defendants are supposed to be shown
every piece of evidence that the state plans to use against them, as
well as any material the state is aware of that tends to exculpate the
defendant, before trial, IF the defendant makes a proper and timely
discovery request.
Maybe because this is a plea bargain and not preparation for trial the
prosecution feels they have no such obligation. Of course, if your
wife had a lawyer she could probably cut thru this much faster and
easier than on her own, but a lawyer would probably cost her more than
the deal she is already being offered.
Only the injured party could
provide the copy per court rules
Huh? I have no idea what that means. If I had a copy, do you mean I
would be legally forbidden to show it to you? ISTM anybody could
show you a copy of the estimate, if they have it, and the court's
records should also be public records which could also be shown to
anybody on request, whether or not the person making inquiry has any
connection with the case. This does not sound like the kind of
matter where confidentiality is important to protect a party or
witness' privacy in which court documents in such a case are kept
under seal.
and there has been only limited verbal
contact by that party
I wouldn't normally expect the victim to have much verbal contact with
the perp while charges are pending in any case.
and it is their claim that we know the dollar
amount claimed (I only got a glimpse at a court folder of some $1600
figure but no actual estimate was handed to me)
So, do you or don't you know the amount claimed? How can they offer
your wife a restitution deal without telling her how much she will
have to pay to make it square? You know the $1600 figure. And isn't
that bottom line -- what they will require in order to drop the
charges -- the only figure you need to know? This is _not_ a civil
lawsuit by the hit-and-run victim for damages, it is a criminal plea
bargain. If you were being sued civilly, yes there is a risk the
victim who sues may have presented you with an inflated or fraudulent
claim (e.g. for pre-existing damage) but since it is the state
prosecutor who is asking you for restitution, presumably the
prosecutor's office has already vetted the repair estimate as genuine
and is using it as the basis for their plea bargain offer; I don't
think your wife has a lot of rights, here, yet, to demand to get a
copy of the written estimate.
Sure, your wife has the right to balk and insist the state provide
discovery and prove everything to the judge at trial, but that would
mean rejecting the proffered deal and going to trial, where she would
probably lose and get a criminal record. What she is paying for is
not just to fix the other guy's car, it is to get the charges dropped,
and IMO she would be stupid not to jump at it.
The state prosecutor could, instead, have said "Pay us a fine of $1600
and we will drop the charges." Wouldn't she have taken that deal
too? And here, you get the benefit of not only getting the charges
dropped, but also getting the potential civili suit by the victim paid
off at the same time. The restitution payment will preclude any
later claim by the victim in civil court for her damages, but if your
wife had only paid a fine instead, she would still face the likelihood
that the victim would sue her for the repairs, months or years later.
Unless you left out something big and important, such as that your
wife really didn't do it and is being framed, tell your wife not to be
a doofus, and to take the offer.
--
This posting is for discussion purposes, not professional advice.
Anything you post on this Newsgroup is public information.
I am not your lawyer, and you are not my client in any specific legal
matter.
For confidential professional advice, consult your own lawyer in a
private communication.
Mike Jacobs
LAW OFFICE OF W. MICHAEL JACOBS
10440 Little Patuxent Pkwy #300
Columbia, MD 21044
(tel) 410-740-5685 (fax) 410-740-4300
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Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:19:33 -0400 from Chipman <s_chipman@att.net>:
[auto accident, criminal charges, lawsuit, etc etc etc]
Any advice?
Meaning no disrespect, you are out of your league on this one. Get
yourself and your wife a lawyer, NOW, and put this whole matter
before your lawyer. I think there's a possibility you are being made
the victim of extortion, but you need legal counsel.
--
If you e-mail me from a fake address, your fingers will drop off.
I am not a lawyer; this is not legal advice. When you read anything
legal on the net, always verify it on your own, in light of your
particular circumstances. You may also need to consult a lawyer.
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
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Mike Jacobs <mjacobslaw@gmail.com> wrote:
Chipman <s_chip...@att.net> wrote:
My wife recently received instructions from the state prosecution
or at court to make arrangement for restitution on auto accident
claim in return for dropping an evasion charge against her.
Your wife caused a crash, had no insurance, fled the scene, and in
addition to damaging someone else's property, she is now being
charged with a crime for her hit-and-run escapade since her
attempt to evade the law didn't work and they found her anyway;
did I get that right?
The prosecutor then offered your wife a deal (i.e. a "plea
bargain") which she was free to either accept or reject: if she
pays $1600 to the court, for restitution of the damage she caused
(which the court will pass thru to the victim) rather than as a
fine (which would go into the state's treasury), the state will
drop the charges. Sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me. Yet,
she's dickering over it.
Agreed. It's even unlikelly she could ever get a lawyer to consider
taking the case for an initial payment of $1600. And if they charge
her, she will likely be convicted of something - lots of money out the
window and a black mark on her record that may never go away.
Unless you left out something big and important, such as that your
wife really didn't do it and is being framed, tell your wife not
to be a doofus, and to take the offer.
That's the best advice I've heard all day.
Stu
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On Apr 18, 8:13 am, Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
Meaning no disrespect, you are out of your league on this one. Get
yourself and your wife a lawyer, NOW, and put this whole matter
before your lawyer. I think there's a possibility you are being made
the victim of extortion, but you need legal counsel.
Agreeing with you, Stan, on your bottom line, although I think the
chances that a state prosecutor is involved in an extortion racket
like this are pretty slim -- it may different if this were the victim
directly calling them and saying "either you pay or I'll bring
charges" kind of thing and then refusing to show them the estimate.
The prosecutor probably just is too busy to be bothered with trying to
convince the wife to take his offer and would just as soon go to trial
and get a conviction for hit-and-run. The criminal discovery
obligation may ultimately require him to reveal his evidence if they
are indeed going to trial, but maybe they're not at that point yet.
Another point that just occurred to me is, maybe if Hubby is "playing
lawyer" for Wifey, the prosecutor simply told HIM to go jump in the
lake because, legally, it is none of his business, coupled with all
the above factors. Maybe if Wifey asked the state's attorney
directly, he would give her a copy. We know there _is_ an invoice,
because OP told us they were shown it briefly in the official file,
just that they were not given a copy of it.
Wifey absolutely needs to get a lawyer NOW, if she has any doubts
about the wisdom of accepting the plea offer. And it is HER
decision, not Hubby's.
--
This posting is for discussion purposes, not professional advice.
Anything you post on this Newsgroup is public information.
I am not your lawyer, and you are not my client in any specific legal
matter.
For confidential professional advice, consult your own lawyer in a
private communication.
Mike Jacobs
LAW OFFICE OF W. MICHAEL JACOBS
10440 Little Patuxent Pkwy #300
Columbia, MD 21044
(tel) 410-740-5685 (fax) 410-740-4300
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In article <svfe04tvionsvijfvbedb5blgejnbipdh6@4ax.com>,
Chipman <s_chipman@att.net> wrote:
My view on this is that no restitution can
begin without a reasonable request for paperwork be honored by the other
party.
Why should anybody care what your view is? You aren't even a party.
Your wife should ask the court clerk how much restitution is required,
and if she thinks it's a good idea, she should pay it.
Seth
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Seth wrote:
In article <svfe04tvionsvijfvbedb5blgejnbipdh6@4ax.com>,
Chipman <s_chipman@att.net> wrote:
Why should anybody care what your view is? You aren't even a party.
Your wife should ask the court clerk how much restitution is required,
and if she thinks it's a good idea, she should pay it.
Seth
I care because I am her husband and care about her enough to get her the
proper due process. It might be a strange concept for some but I am her
counsel during this process. Also, I happen to be the only income
provider in our family at present. Why is asking for proper
documentation such an unusual request? If the other party we damaged
have a legit claim, then present us with the bill for us to review. If
anyone had seen the vehicle damaged, you would have seen a slight hood
dent, compared to the punched out dent of our car. Now, I realize that
evading the scene did not put my wife in the best light. However, that
does not stop her from any rights that she has in confronting the other
party in the claim. Having $1600 given out casually is not my idea of
justice when a simple request for paperwork cannot be honored,
especially when our Connecticut court system requires them to do so.
Any remarks regarding this that insult and berate her are unhelpful,
unwelcome and give me no insight whatsoever on how to proceed. If
anyone here truly wants to help, spare me the spite and shrill comments.
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On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:50:13 -0400, Chipman <s_chipman@att.net> wrote:
Seth wrote:
I care because I am her husband and care about her enough to get her the
proper due process. It might be a strange concept for some but I am her
counsel during this process.
If you are not a licensed attorney, you are practicing law without a
license.
Also, I happen to be the only income
provider in our family at present. Why is asking for proper
documentation such an unusual request? If the other party we damaged
have a legit claim, then present us with the bill for us to review. If
anyone had seen the vehicle damaged, you would have seen a slight hood
dent, compared to the punched out dent of our car. Now, I realize that
evading the scene did not put my wife in the best light. However, that
does not stop her from any rights that she has in confronting the other
party in the claim. Having $1600 given out casually is not my idea of
justice when a simple request for paperwork cannot be honored,
especially when our Connecticut court system requires them to do so.
Are you even in court yet? If you get sued, then you'll have those
rights, but then you'll be in court. It will certainly cost more than
$1,600, especially if you intend to act as "counsel." I imagine the
Connecticut court system has something to say about that also.
Any remarks regarding this that insult and berate her are unhelpful,
unwelcome and give me no insight whatsoever on how to proceed. If
anyone here truly wants to help, spare me the spite and shrill comments.
You should avoid breaking the law. While I doubt it is your intent to
do so, and quite possibly you are not actually breaking the law, the
very fact that you would say something like that you are her counsel
shows that you don't know what that means and should not be acting in
any fashion even remotely like it.
It sounds like you're inviting charges, and you don't know
what you're doing. The only advice anyone can reasonably give you is
to seek legal counsel if you want legal advice. If you intend to
advise your wife to refuse to pay up and get charged, then she'll
have those procedural rights, but it will certainly cost more than
$1,600, and you'll be unlikely to be allowed to play amateur lawyer
in a real court.
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On Apr 24, 7:50 am, Chipman <s_chip...@att.net> wrote:
I care because I am her husband and care about her enough to get her the
proper due process.
That would mean taking the steps to get her a lawyer, not trying to
play one yourself.
It might be a strange concept for some but I am her
counsel during this process.
Unless CT is very different from MD, you are not authorized or
permitted to act in that role, which may be why the prosecutor is
shunning you. I suspected that before, but with the additional
information in your most recent post, you have added confirmation to
that suspicion. Back off and, either let your wife do the talking,
or let her get a lawyer.
Also, I happen to be the only income
provider in our family at present. Why is asking for proper
documentation such an unusual request?
Because at this point we're not sure if it is required to be provided,
and neither are you. What we do know is that you are not the one
authorized to be asking for it. Why not let your wife ask for it and
see how they respond?
If the other party we damaged
have a legit claim, then present us with the bill for us to review.
You don't get it. This is not a civil suit for damages, in which
your assumption would be perfectly correct.
Rather, your wife is being charged with a crime. Restitution is a
criminal penalty in lieu of (or in addition to, or combined with) a
fine. The prosecutor, in offering a plea bargain, can set that figure
at any number he wants, and is not limited to the specific dollar
amount shown on some invoice. Your wife's choice is to (1) take it,
or (2) leave it, or (3) try to negotiate a lower number. It sounds
like she is not very good at negotiation, and we already know the
state will not _let_ you do it, even if you think you are very good at
it, so that leaves options (1) or (2). What advantages to your wife,
as a caring husband, do you see to choosing option (2)?
anyone had seen the vehicle damaged, you would have seen a slight hood
dent, compared to the punched out dent of our car.
Have you priced repairs lately? A bang serious enough to dent the
hood will also cause damage to the bumper/grille area or fender area
(unless you just dropped a rock on it from above or something). The
horizontal force has to pass thru that other structure before it even
gets to the hood. Repair of all that could easily exceed the $1600
demanded.
Now, I realize that
evading the scene did not put my wife in the best light. However, that
does not stop her from any rights that she has in confronting the other
party in the claim.
She's NOT confronting the other party. She's facing a criminal charge
brought by the state, and is negotiating with the state on the terms
under which the state is willing to drop that charge. That's all.
Her plea bargain offer would have the incidental benefit (to you,
probably the primary benefit) of also fulfilling in advance any civil
liabilities she may have had to the victim, but that is not its main
purpose; its main purpose is punishment.
Having $1600 given out casually is not my idea of
justice when a simple request for paperwork cannot be honored,
especially when our Connecticut court system requires them to do so.
Citation? I thought that was something we didn't know yet. Has
your wife followed all the proper procedures to request criminal
discovery? Do you know what they are?
Any remarks regarding this that insult and berate her are unhelpful,
unwelcome and give me no insight whatsoever on how to proceed.
We are not trying to insult your wife. We are trying to get you to
see that the only way you should proceed is to (1) let your wife
represent herself, or (2) let her get a lawyer. And if the fact that
I keep using the term "let her" in this context doesn't get your
hackles up, maybe there are other issues you and your wife should deal
with, since she is a fully adult person capable of independent action,
or should be, and it does her no favors to have to rely on you to take
charge of everything even when you're not legally allowed to do so.
Good luck to you both,
--
This posting is for discussion purposes, not professional advice.
Anything you post on this Newsgroup is public information.
I am not your lawyer, and you are not my client in any specific legal
matter.
For confidential professional advice, consult your own lawyer in a
private communication.
Mike Jacobs
LAW OFFICE OF W. MICHAEL JACOBS
10440 Little Patuxent Pkwy #300
Columbia, MD 21044
(tel) 410-740-5685 (fax) 410-740-4300
anyone here truly wants to help, spare me the spite and shrill comments.
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Chipman <s_chipman@att.net> wrote:
Seth wrote:
I care because I am her husband and care about her enough to get
her the proper due process. It might be a strange concept for
some but I am her counsel during this process.
If you care you will get her a real lawyer. Your lack of experience,
knowledge and understanding of the realities of the situation could end
up costing your wife a whole lot more than is necessary, including a
criminal conviction, which is not something to be dismissed lightly.
Why is asking for proper documentation such an unusual request?
Because it's not a civil case, it's a criminal case. And while
documentation should certainly be important, technically it is largely
irrelevant.
If she were simply sued by the other party, things would be different.
Stu
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Thu, 24 Apr 2008 07:50:13 -0400 from Chipman <s_chipman@att.net>:
It might be a strange concept for some but I am her
counsel during this process.
Not strange, just foolhardy.
--
If you e-mail me from a fake address, your fingers will drop off.
I am not a lawyer; this is not legal advice. When you read anything
legal on the net, always verify it on your own, in light of your
particular circumstances. You may also need to consult a lawyer.
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
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In article <aus014d21932laoe86dneo6rj7b0k4lhjc@4ax.com>,
Chipman <s_chipman@att.net> wrote:
Seth wrote:
I care because I am her husband and care about her enough to get her the
proper due process.
I didn't ask why you care, but why anybody else should care about your
view. You aren't a party to the case.
It might be a strange concept for some but I am her
counsel during this process.
Are you a licensed attorney? If not, you can certainly advise her,
but it's still her case.
Also, I happen to be the only income
provider in our family at present.
That's irrelevant.
Why is asking for proper
documentation such an unusual request?
It is quite unusual for a *third party* to be given anything. Your
wife is a party to the case. Has *she* asked? You are not a party to
the case. Why do you expect a court would give you any more
information than they'd give me?
If the other party we damaged
have a legit claim, then present us with the bill for us to review.
That will happen in a civil suit, if they aren't satisfied sooner.
However, that
does not stop her from any rights that she has in confronting the other
party in the claim. Having $1600 given out casually is not my idea of
justice when a simple request for paperwork cannot be honored,
A request from a non-party is seldom honored. Why do you resist
having your wife, the actual party, make the request?
especially when our Connecticut court system requires them to do so.
I'd be very surprised if any court system required the courts to
provide information to a non-party in a case.
Any remarks regarding this that insult and berate her are unhelpful,
unwelcome and give me no insight whatsoever on how to proceed.
I'm berating _you_. You've gotten plenty of good advice.
Has your wife seen it? Does she know the risks being taken with her
life?
Seth
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