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I have a small and growing business and my question of
the experts here is, Is it legal to sell a product for $10 FRN
but give a 20% discount for purchases made with Silver?
--
Robert Miller
member of www.norfed.org
Bringing America back to value $1 at a time
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Robert Miller wrote:
I have a small and growing business and my question of
the experts here is, Is it legal to sell a product for $10 FRN
but give a 20% discount for purchases made with Silver?
Yes -- and no.
You can sell a product for US$10 or for 8 dollars (not US$) of
silver, if you so wish. However, for tax purposes, and probably
for sales tax purposes, you have to declare the value as that
of the 8 dollars of silver, which can be more or less than $10.
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Robert Miller wrote:
Yes -- and no.
You can sell a product for US$10 or for 8 dollars (not US$) of
silver, if you so wish. However, for tax purposes, and probably
for sales tax purposes, you have to declare the value as that
of the 8 dollars of silver, which can be more or less than $10.
I would sell the objects for NORFED's American Liberty Currency
and / or their Silver Liberty pieces. I would give them a link so they
can purchase the Silver Libertys with thier check or credit card.
They get an automatic discount for using Silver Libertys and no
discount for using FRN's.
When I receive my Silver Libertys I spend them into circulation at
$10. It's a win / win situation because I get sell my products at
discount to the consumer I get full value of the Silver Libertys
minus shipping costs, and I can promote NORFED in a positive
way.
Robert Miller
member of www.norfed.org
Bringing America back to value $1 at a time.
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Robert Miller wrote:
I would sell the objects for NORFED's American Liberty Currency
and / or their Silver Liberty pieces.
Still not US$. However, if you want to do it that way,
it seems legal -- noting again, for tax purposes, it's the
VALUE (or Fair Market Value) of the coins or notes
which has to be reported.
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"Robert Miller" <rmiller0100@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<c-SdnXsq_tbMp0qiRVn-sA@comcast.com>...
I have a small and growing business and my question of
the experts here is, Is it legal to sell a product for $10 FRN
but give a 20% discount for purchases made with Silver?
To be on the safe side, quote your prices in FRN dollars and then
allow a discount for silver. Because silver is not money in the sense
that governments understand, any sales you make this way are barter.
Your sales are the fair market value (in FRN dollars) of the silver
you receive. Since you are engaging in direct barter, not setting
yourself up as a barter exchange, you shouldn't run afoul of 1099-B
reporting requirements. You need to check with your state tax
authorities on how to report and pay sales tax on barter sales.
You would do well to run this by a lawyer who has had some success in
convincing courts, state tax authorities, and the IRS that
arrangements similar to yours are legal. You could set yourself up for
various deceptive trade practice or tax evasion charges if you don't.
--
Not a lawyer,
Chris Green
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Robert! wrote:
I would sell the objects for NORFED's American Liberty Currency
and / or their Silver Liberty pieces. I would give them a link so they
can purchase the Silver Libertys with thier check or credit card.
They get an automatic discount for using Silver Libertys and no
discount for using FRN's.
When I receive my Silver Libertys I spend them into circulation at
$10. It's a win / win situation because I get sell my products at
discount to the consumer I get full value of the Silver Libertys
minus shipping costs, and I can promote NORFED in a positive
way.
Robert Miller
member of www.norfed.org
Bringing America back to value $1 at a time.
No matter how you look at it, your silver liberty stuff is still the
equivelant of monopoly money.
If the stuff is used like "traveler's checks" are, then you have a viable
alternative and can sell, or discount as desired.
Silver Liberty can not be substituted for real money as it is not printed by
the US Government, who are the only people authorized by congress to do so.
Regardless of what it is made of, the face value of a "dollar" is still one
dollar.
"silver liberty" can not be legally used for "all debts private and public"
or as "legal tender".
The "Franklin Mint" reproduces coins for collectors, yet they are not "legal
tender".
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Robert Miller wrote:
Still not US$. However, if you want to do it that way,
it seems legal -- noting again, for tax purposes, it's the
VALUE (or Fair Market Value) of the coins or notes
which has to be reported.
This is what I thought and expected. I hear a lot of junk from many
corners. I like it when people I don't always agree with but respect,
spend a moment to give me thier opinion. Thanks!
Robert Miller
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of
government. It can only exist until the voters
discover that they can vote themselves money from
the public treasure. From that moment on the majority
always votes for the candidates promising the most
money from the public treasury, with the result that
a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy
followed by a dictatorship.
The average age of the world's great civilizations has
been two hundred years. These nations have progressed
through the following sequence: from bondage to
spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage,
from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance,
from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to
complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to
dependency, from dependency back to bondage."
Alexander Tyler
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Robert! wrote:
No matter how you look at it, your silver liberty stuff is still the
equivelant of monopoly money.
Wrong! Monopoly money has no value other than the value of the
paper it's written on. Much like the Federal Reserve Note. There is
no value to the Federal Reserve Note, it is not evidence of wealth! it
is in fact evidence of Debt. The FRN is a promissory note and a
defective one at that. What makes the FRN useable in commerce is
the "Legal Tender" laws. Requiring the merchant to accept a defective
negotiable instrument in exchange of goods and services literally at
the point of a gun.
Imagine Congress having to pass a law to force a merchant to accept
money as the course of doing business. I would expect that merchants
go into business so they can accept money.
If the stuff is used like "traveler's checks" are, then you have a viable
alternative and can sell, or discount as desired.
Silver Liberty can not be substituted for real money as it is not printed
by
the US Government, who are the only people authorized by congress to do
so.
They are a real store of value where the dollar is not. The $100 FRN
this year will likely lose 3% of it's value in 12 months, at least it has
for
the last 90 years.
Regardless of what it is made of, the face value of a "dollar" is still
one
dollar.
What you call a dollar is not in fact a "Dollar"
DOLLAR, money. A silver coin of the United States of the value of one
hundred cents, or tenth part of an eagle.
2. It weighs four hundred and twelve and a half grains. Of one thousand
parts, nine hundred are of pure silver and one hundred of alloy. Act of
January 18, 1837, ss. 8 & 9, 4 Sharsw. Cont. of Story's L. U. S. 2523, 4;
Wright, R. 162.
"silver liberty" can not be legally used for "all debts private and
public"
or as "legal tender".
Never would call it "Legal Tender" but since commercial contracts are or
can be considered as money in the bank, and loans made on them. Why
can't or shouldn't someone be able to do the same thing with Silver?
The "Franklin Mint" reproduces coins for collectors, yet they are not
"legal
tender".
The Treasury produces Silver dollars and sells them for $8 each. They
are legal tender but only at face value. The only difference between the
Treasury's Silver dollar and NORFED's Silver Liberty is the impression
stamped onto the Silver.
I can buy 100 Silver Libertys for about $7 ea. and spend them for $10. On
everything from gasoline to traffic fines. Not as legal tender but more as
barter. When someone wants to get $10 back for the Silver Liberty they
will look up to find the local NORFED redemption center which I am one,
They will call me and I will make arrangements to exchange their Silver
Libertys or Warehouse receipts for full face value. As I did for Walmart
last April.
Robert Miller
"In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way
to protect savings from confiscation through inflation.
There is no safe store of value. If there were, the
government would have to make its holding illegal, as
was done in the case of gold.... The financial policy
of the welfare state requires that there be no way for
the owners of wealth to protect themselves.
"This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists'
tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a
scheme for the 'hidden' confiscation of wealth. Gold
stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands
as a protector of property rights."
- Alan Greenspan; "Gold and Economic Freedom"
http://www.usagold.com/gildedopinion/Greenspan.html
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I have a small and growing business and my question of
the experts here is, Is it legal to sell a product for $10 FRN
but give a 20% discount for purchases made with Silver?
Last I heard, barter is legal. You can sell stuff in exchange for
just about anything, provided it's legal to sell and buy. (cocaine,
sexual favors, slaves, nuclear weapons, etc. are probably off the
list. Trading Lasik eye surgery for termite treatment for your
home is perfectly OK if qualified people are providing the services).
You can pick any price you and the person you are trading with will
agree to.
You do not have to follow any rational pricing scheme based on
market value, for example, you might sell your product for $10 FRN,
or for 1 cow (worth $1000 FRN to other farmers, but you don't really
know what to DO with a cow, and your lease doesn't let you keep it
in your apartment), or for 1 pencil (worth $0.10 FRN) from some
poor kid you feel sorry for. You still have to pay sales and income
taxes, though. I do wonder about how you evaluate for tax purposes
apparently unequal exchanges, like the starving farmer who trades
1 cow for 1 Big Mac at McDonalds.
There are some things you can't use as the basis for prices - such
as the race, sex, etc. of the person you are trading with.
I'd be careful about using the same unit of currency for FRNs and
silver in advertising. It can lead to misunderstandings. (On the
other hand, saying the price is 10 FRNs or 8 NorFeds is fine.) For
example, is that gold-colored one-dollar coin that the U.S. Mint
produces a FRN? (The one I am talking about is circulated AT FACE
VALUE, and is often available as change in U.S. postal vending
machines). It does NOT say "Federal Reserve Note" on it anywhere.
How about 100 of those things called "pennies"? Do the silver-looking
dollar coins the US Mint produces/produced at least in 1979-1980
(those are the dates on a couple I have handy) have any silver
content in them at all? If so, is paying in them paying in Silver?
Last I heard, silver was generally priced in ounces, even when it's
in the form of bullion coins. How is a "dollar of silver" defined?
Gordon L. Burditt
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No matter how you look at it, your silver liberty stuff is still the
equivelant of monopoly money.
Even Monopoly money can be valuable under the right circumstances.
For example, if you are snowed in and toilet paper is in short
supply, getting 5 Monopoly bills for a $1 bill might seem like a
bargain. In the same circumstances, getting 5 $1 bills for a $50
bill might also seem like a bargain, for the same reason.
Also, if it's cheap enough, Monopoly money is a cheap replacement
for a pad of scratch paper. Or packing material for packages if
you crumple it up.
If the stuff is used like "traveler's checks" are, then you have a viable
alternative and can sell, or discount as desired.
Silver Liberty can not be substituted for real money as it is not printed by
the US Government, who are the only people authorized by congress to do so.
There are lots of things that have value and can be traded, even
though they are not legal tender (some aren't even legal, period)
or produced by the US government: gold, silver, diamonds, oil,
gasoline, weapons, drugs, real estate, cars, etc.
Regardless of what it is made of, the face value of a "dollar" is still one
dollar.
"silver liberty" can not be legally used for "all debts private and public"
or as "legal tender".
You might be surprised what a credit card company or even tax office
will accept that ISN'T legal tender, especially if they think you
can't pay otherwise. Last I heard, credit cards aren't legal tender but
many tax offices permit payments using them, including the IRS.
The "Franklin Mint" reproduces coins for collectors, yet they are not "legal
tender".
Gordon L. Burditt
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I have a small and growing business and my question of
the experts here is, Is it legal to sell a product for $10 FRN
but give a 20% discount for purchases made with Silver?
Last I heard, barter is legal. You can sell stuff in exchange for
just about anything, provided it's legal to sell and buy. (cocaine,
sexual favors, slaves, nuclear weapons, etc. are probably off the
list. Trading Lasik eye surgery for termite treatment for your
home is perfectly OK if qualified people are providing the services).
You can pick any price you and the person you are trading with will
agree to.
You do not have to follow any rational pricing scheme based on
market value, for example, you might sell your product for $10 FRN,
or for 1 cow (worth $1000 FRN to other farmers, but you don't really
know what to DO with a cow, and your lease doesn't let you keep it
in your apartment), or for 1 pencil (worth $0.10 FRN) from some
poor kid you feel sorry for. You still have to pay sales and income
taxes, though. I do wonder about how you evaluate for tax purposes
apparently unequal exchanges, like the starving farmer who trades
1 cow for 1 Big Mac at McDonalds.
There are some things you can't use as the basis for prices - such
as the race, sex, etc. of the person you are trading with.
I'd be careful about using the same unit of currency for FRNs and
silver in advertising. It can lead to misunderstandings. (On the
other hand, saying the price is 10 FRNs or 8 NorFeds is fine.) For
example, is that gold-colored one-dollar coin that the U.S. Mint
produces a FRN? (The one I am talking about is circulated AT FACE
VALUE, and is often available as change in U.S. postal vending
machines). It does NOT say "Federal Reserve Note" on it anywhere.
How about 100 of those things called "pennies"? Do the silver-looking
dollar coins the US Mint produces/produced at least in 1979-1980
(those are the dates on a couple I have handy) have any silver
content in them at all? If so, is paying in them paying in Silver?
They are legal tender and available for use in trade, but to understand
what that golden dollar is. I don't know what it costs to produce but I'd
guess there is less than 1cents worth of metal. In the vernacular that
golden dollar is what you'd call token money. It represents something
of value. It honestly represents a dollar but most people don't know
what a dollar is. People talk about how we've been dumbed down,
have no idea have far we've been dumbed down.
Ask someone what is a dollar. Perhaps one person in a hundred will
say it's:
DOLLAR, money. A silver coin of the United States of the value of one
hundred cents, or tenth part of an eagle.
2. It weighs four hundred and twelve and a half grains. Of one thousand
parts, nine hundred are of pure silver and one hundred of alloy. Act of
January 18, 1837, ss. 8 & 9, 4 Sharsw. Cont. of Story's L. U. S. 2523, 4;
Wright, R. 162.
3. In all computations at the custom-house, the specie dollar of Sweden
and Norway shall be estimated at one hundred and six cents. The specie
dollar of Denmark, at one hundred and five cents. Act of May 22, 1846.
The other 99 will say a dollar is slip of paper also known as a
Bank Note or Federal Reserve Note, a promissory note that is
defective because its only payable in more promissory notes.
It's a debt instrument, and evidence of debt! not wealth. The
use of which makes a person personally liable for the national
debt.
Last I heard, silver was generally priced in ounces, even when it's
in the form of bullion coins. How is a "dollar of silver" defined?
Gordon L. Burditt
Robert Miller
member of www.norfed.org
"In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way
to protect savings from confiscation through inflation.
There is no safe store of value. If there were, the
government would have to make its holding illegal, as
was done in the case of gold.... The financial policy
of the welfare state requires that there be no way for
the owners of wealth to protect themselves.
"This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists'
tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a
scheme for the 'hidden' confiscation of wealth. Gold
stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands
as a protector of property rights."
- Alan Greenspan; "Gold and Economic Freedom"
http://www.usagold.com/gildedopinion/Greenspan.html
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I'd be careful about using the same unit of currency for FRNs and
silver in advertising. It can lead to misunderstandings. (On the
other hand, saying the price is 10 FRNs or 8 NorFeds is fine.) For
example, is that gold-colored one-dollar coin that the U.S. Mint
produces a FRN? (The one I am talking about is circulated AT FACE
VALUE, and is often available as change in U.S. postal vending
machines). It does NOT say "Federal Reserve Note" on it anywhere.
How about 100 of those things called "pennies"? Do the silver-looking
dollar coins the US Mint produces/produced at least in 1979-1980
(those are the dates on a couple I have handy) have any silver
content in them at all? If so, is paying in them paying in Silver?
They are legal tender and available for use in trade, but to understand
what that golden dollar is. I don't know what it costs to produce but I'd
guess there is less than 1cents worth of metal. In the vernacular that
golden dollar is what you'd call token money.
But IS IT A FRN?
It represents something
of value. It honestly represents a dollar but most people don't know
what a dollar is. People talk about how we've been dumbed down,
have no idea have far we've been dumbed down.
The "dumbed down" definition is the one used in commerce. If you
are planning on advertising prices in "dollars", expect trouble
when people (including courts) think you mean $1 FRN when you use
the word "dollar" in advertising.
I do not understand how you claim that charging $10 FRN or $8 silver
is a "discount for silver". Using your 1800's definition of a
dollar as a silver coin of specific weight and purity, doesn't the
current market value of silver make $8 silver worth a heck of a lot
more than $10 FRN?
The other 99 will say a dollar is slip of paper also known as a
Bank Note or Federal Reserve Note, a promissory note that is
defective because its only payable in more promissory notes.
It's a debt instrument, and evidence of debt! not wealth. The
Evidence of debt *IS* evidence of wealth. If there's a debt,
it's owed to someone.
use of which makes a person personally liable for the national
debt.
Really? Just how does using FRNs make you liable for the national debt?
Gordon L. Burditt
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I'd be careful about using the same unit of currency for FRNs and
silver in advertising. It can lead to misunderstandings. (On the
other hand, saying the price is 10 FRNs or 8 NorFeds is fine.) For
example, is that gold-colored one-dollar coin that the U.S. Mint
produces a FRN? (The one I am talking about is circulated AT FACE
VALUE, and is often available as change in U.S. postal vending
machines). It does NOT say "Federal Reserve Note" on it anywhere.
How about 100 of those things called "pennies"? Do the silver-looking
dollar coins the US Mint produces/produced at least in 1979-1980
(those are the dates on a couple I have handy) have any silver
content in them at all? If so, is paying in them paying in Silver?
They are legal tender and available for use in trade, but to understand
what that golden dollar is. I don't know what it costs to produce but
I'd
guess there is less than 1cents worth of metal. In the vernacular that
golden dollar is what you'd call token money.
But IS IT A FRN?
The "dumbed down" definition is the one used in commerce. If you
are planning on advertising prices in "dollars", expect trouble
when people (including courts) think you mean $1 FRN when you use
the word "dollar" in advertising.
I accept FRN's $30 in FRN's will get you a very nice set of of flavored
Organic extra virgin olive oil. I will sell them for $24.00 if they will go
to NORFED's web site and purchase $24 worth of NORFED's Silver
Libertys into my account. A little troublesome, but a 20% discount
is an inducement.
Silver Libertys and the Silver Certificates were designed to circulate
in paralell with FRN's. I use both.
I do not understand how you claim that charging $10 FRN or $8 silver
is a "discount for silver". Using your 1800's definition of a
dollar as a silver coin of specific weight and purity, doesn't the
current market value of silver make $8 silver worth a heck of a lot
more than $10 FRN?
We are not going by the 1800's definition of Dollar. The Silver Libertys
are 1 troy oz. of .999 fine silver. They have a face value of $10. When
purchased in quantity I can get them for just over the spot price of the
silver. I'll go into a gas station or hardware store or even the Habersham
County Courthouse and offer them at face value.
You will find examples of the Silver Libertys and Warehouse receipts
at www.norfed.org not to mention legal opinion and coments from
the Federal Reserve, the U.S. Treasury BEP, and the U.S. Secret Service.
Believe it or not many places accept them.
The other 99 will say a dollar is slip of paper also known as a
Bank Note or Federal Reserve Note, a promissory note that is
defective because its only payable in more promissory notes.
It's a debt instrument, and evidence of debt! not wealth. The
Evidence of debt *IS* evidence of wealth. If there's a debt,
it's owed to someone.
Evidence of debt in my pocket is evidence of wealth where?
It costs about 3 cents to print a FRN $1 costing about the same as
a $100 to print. Congress borrows them at face value and pays about
4% interest on top of that. The Federal Reserve Act required an
Income Tax and the Income Tax Amendment was fraudulently
certified as ratified a year later.
Really? Just how does using FRNs make you liable for the national debt?
Every privledge has a cost. For the privledge of discharging your
debt with FRN's you take on the National debt. You see you can't
pay your debts with FRN's because you are discharging you debt by
paying with a promissory note. It has no value accept a face value.
You can not pay someone with a promise to pay. Just like you can not
pay someone with an I.O.U. Only in this case the I.O.U. goes from hand to
hand to hand. If you know what a promissory note is, then you know that
the Federal Reserves promissory note is defective.
Gordon L. Burditt
Robert Miller
member of www.norfed.org
Message from G. Edward Griffin, Author:
Creature from Jekyll Island - A Second
Look at the Federal Reserve
http://www.realityzone.com/
Where does money come from? Where does it go?
Who makes it? The money magicians' secrets
are unveiled. We get a close look at their
mirrors and smoke machines, their pulleys,
cogs, and wheels that create the grand
illusion called money. A dry and boring
subject? Just wait! You'll be hooked in five
minutes.
Reads like a detective story - which it really
is. But it's all true. This book is about the
most blatant scam of all history. It's all
here: the cause of wars, boom-bust cycles,
inflation, depression, prosperity. Creature
from Jekyll Island will change the way you
view the world, politics, and money. Your
world view will definitely change. You'll
never trust a politician again - or a banker.
On page 573 of The Creature from Jekyll
Island - A Second Look at the Federal
Reserve, I wrote that, before we could
abandon Federal Reserve Notes (FRNs), we
first had to be able to convert them
into real money. I said: "That means we
must create an entirely new money supply
which is 100% backed by precious metal;
and we must do so in a reasonably short
period of time." Well, you have to be
careful what you recommend, because
Bernard von NotHaus, the Senior Economist
at NORFED, did exactly that. And although
I initially thought there were too many
obstacles, to my surprise, the more I
studied the details of his plan, the more
convinced that by Jove, it just might work!
The Reality Zone is a Redemption Center,
and I urge you to get in on the ground floor
and join this growing group of concerned
Americans as a Redemption Center now.
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Robert Miller wrote:
We are not going by the 1800's definition of Dollar. The Silver Libertys
are 1 troy oz. of .999 fine silver. They have a face value of $10.
And isn't the spot value of silver about $4 per oz.?
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Robert Miller wrote:
And isn't the spot value of silver about $4 per oz.?
You don't buy the U.S. Treasury's, Silver Eagle! In fact they cost at least
$8
last time I checked. Try to spend one of them for $8. Now take a different
piece of silver. Same size same weight even the same producer as the U.S.
Treasury's coin. The silver blanks for the U.S. are provided by the same
mint that produces NORFED's Silver Libertys.
The only difference is the image and the fact that you can spend them.
Anybody who wants their $10 back has the directions in their hand on how
to do that.
Some unforeseen time from now FRN's will be worthless or collector's items.
The Silver Libertys will always have the value of the silver, but that's not
the
best part. The best part is if our money supply is backed by silver in a
vault
the would be no interest on the national debt.
I forget, maybe you can tell me what percentage of the national debt is
interest?
Price of Silver is on the rise, think of it as the price of the dollar going
down.
Silver was near $4.80 per oz. but you would have to buy 1000 oz. to get that
price.
Robert Miller
Abraham Lincoln, following the Dred Scott decision
that declared Congress could not prohibit slavery,
said in his first inaugural address, "I do not
forget the position assumed by some that
constitutional questions are to be decided by the
Supreme Court," Lincoln said. "[I]f the policy of
the government upon vital questions affecting the
whole people is to be irrevocably fixed by
decisions of the Supreme Court . . . the people
will have ceased to be their own
rulers, having . . . resigned their government
into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
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Robert Miller wrote:
You don't buy the U.S. Treasury's, Silver Eagle! In fact they cost at least
$8
last time I checked. Try to spend one of them for $8. Now take a different
piece of silver. Same size same weight even the same producer as the U.S.
Treasury's coin. The silver blanks for the U.S. are provided by the same
mint that produces NORFED's Silver Libertys.
I don't buy the "Silver Eagle" (which I thought was directly from Mint, rather
than being a "coin" from the Treasury) either. I wouldn't pay more than 10%
over (bulk) silver value for either. Well -- I take that back. I wouldn't
pay more than 10% over (bulk) silver value for either -- unless it were
a "proof" coin (or token) sold as a numismatic object in a clear plastic
case. (I have a few proof "coins" from US Gold.) Those are not
intended to be "spent", but to be "sold" (possibly for US Gold gold,
silver, or platinum tokens).
That the Mint buys blanks from the same place NORFED does is completely
irrelevant to whether "Silver Eagles" and "NORFED Silver Libertys" are of
comparable value.
The only difference is the image and the fact that you can spend them.
Anybody who wants their $10 back has the directions in their hand on how
to do that.
Some unforeseen time from now FRN's will be worthless or collector's items.
Possibly.
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Robert Miller wrote:
I don't buy the "Silver Eagle" (which I thought was directly from Mint,
rather
than being a "coin" from the Treasury) either. I wouldn't pay more than
10%
over (bulk) silver value for either. Well -- I take that back. I
wouldn't
pay more than 10% over (bulk) silver value for either -- unless it were
a "proof" coin (or token) sold as a numismatic object in a clear plastic
case. (I have a few proof "coins" from US Gold.) Those are not
intended to be "spent", but to be "sold" (possibly for US Gold gold,
silver, or platinum tokens).
That the Mint buys blanks from the same place NORFED does is completely
irrelevant to whether "Silver Eagles" and "NORFED Silver Libertys" are of
comparable value.
Two questions.
What do you think a " token" is? and,
How do you define value?
Is value an absolute, or is value only relitive? Can something have value
and
at the same time be valueless?
What makes a Silver Eagle more or less valueable? Is it in the eye of the
beholder?
What is value and where does it come from? Does a FRN have value?
Does a FRN have intrinsic value? If so where does the value come
from.
Does the value come from the same place for the Argentine Peso?
If silver goes to $10 per oz. Did the silver gain value or the dollar lose
value? Or is it as you say irrelevant?
The only difference is the image and the fact that you can spend them.
Anybody who wants their $10 back has the directions in their hand on how
to do that.
Some unforeseen time from now FRN's will be worthless or collector's
items.
Possibly.
Robert Miller
member of www.norfed.org
"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is
absolute master of all industry and commerce."
--Paul Warburg, drafter of the Federal Reserve Act
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Some unforeseen time from now FRN's will be worthless or collector's items.
Possibly.
Almost certainly. But right now they are the best money there is. Even Saddam
Hussein kept a suitcase of FRNs with him while he was in hiding--- not Euros,
npt gold bullion, not silver, not Silver Liberty Dollars, not Iraqi Dinars---
he chose good old American Federal Reserve Notes!
*****
Tim Horrigan <horrigan@aol.com>
*****
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Robert Miller wrote:
rather
10%
wouldn't
Two questions.
What do you think a " token" is? and,
How do you define value?
In this context: a "token" is the same as a "coin", except it's
not supported by any government.
For what it's worth, the question of "value" has nothing to do
with the original subject of this thread. The "value" of something
is determined by what one is willing to excange for it.
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Robert Miller wrote:
In this context: a "token" is the same as a "coin", except it's
not supported by any government.
A city bus token would be one exception, a city government
produces them and supports them. A bus token is the
classic example of token money supported by government.
Game tokens being the classic example of private token
money.
A silver coin supports itself, either one by the Tresury dept.,
or by a private individual. Token money or promissory
money can be spent, and their value can fluctuate with the
market. Token money and promissory money can go to
zero value, but silver or gold coins can not go to zero
value unless the govt. makes their holding illegal.
For what it's worth, the question of "value" has nothing to do
with the original subject of this thread. The "value" of something
is determined by what one is willing to excange for it.
True, but it is the purpose of money to be a store of value. At
least it was the purpose of money for thousands of years. Rome
fell because it debased it's own money, more than any other single
reason. No government has ever long survived after it debased it's
money supply.
Robert Miller
member of www.norfed.org
AUGUST 19, 1877: In a speech made by the Secretary of
Treasury John Sherman, he said: "There is a large class of
people who believe that paper can be, and ought to be, made
into money without any promise or hope of redemption; that
a note should be printed: "This is a dollar," and be made a
legal tender. I regard this as a mild form of lunacy, and
have no disposition to debate with men who indulge in such
delusions,...
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Robert Miller wrote:
The $100 FRN
this year will likely lose 3% of it's value in 12 months, at least it has
for
the last 90 years.
Actually since 1990 (or earlier) inflation on goods has been running -ve
: the $100 FRN has been gaining value on average every year when
measured in term of a basket of goods like gold, silver, cars,
computers, food etc. The only reason inflation is reported at around 3%
per year is the cost of services that keeps going up : this just means
american workers earn more money every year and it costs more money to
hire servants, doctors, accountants etc.
It is indeed ironic that a $100 FRN given the current Fed policies is
safer than some arbitrary set of goods like gold or silver !
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Robert Miller wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="midDZ-dnRNwYaVhO0qiRVn-ig@comcast.com">
<pre wrap=""><!----> The $100 FRN
this year will likely lose 3% of it's value in 12 months, at least it has
for
the last 90 years.
</pre>
</blockquote>
Actually since 1990 (or earlier) inflation on goods has been running
-ve : the $100 FRN has been gaining value on average every year when
measured in term of a basket of goods like gold, silver, cars,
computers, food etc. The only reason inflation is reported at around 3%
per year is the cost of services that keeps going up : this just means
american workers earn more money every year and it costs more money to
hire servants, doctors, accountants etc.<br>
<br>
It is indeed ironic that a $100 FRN given the current Fed policies is
safer than some arbitrary set of goods like gold or silver !<br>
<br>
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