|
Two months ago, I bought a copier at a physical public auction (not eBay)
for $500 which is worth maybe $2000 or $3000. The company had gone belly up.
I called the manufacturer for parts and was told that the machine was on
lease and should not have been sold by the auction company. (The
manufacturer handles their own leave contracts.) They said there is a
balance of $34,000 on the machine. They didn't specify, but my guess this is
accrued maintenance and other charges since the machine is about four or
five years old and was only worth maybe $15,000 when it was brand new.
Anyway, I was told that the company's legal department is now looking into
the matter.
My guess is that the manufacturer could sue the auctioneer for selling a
machine he didn't have the right to sell and try to get the machine back. I
could then sue the auctioneer for my costs and damages. But as a practical
matter, my guess is that the manufacturer doesn't want this old machine
back. They just want as much of the $34,000 as they can get. But I don't see
how they will get that either from the bankrupt company, the auctioneer or
me.
Could the manufacturer argue that I bought the machine and all of its
encumbrances?
The auctioneer's terms and conditions include boilerplate that says "sold
as-is without warranty or representation," "sales final," and "purchaser
hold harmless auctioneer for any claim..."
Can I get an analysis of my situation? How should I proceed? I want to keep
the machine if possible.
|
| |
| |
Alan! wrote:
Two months ago, I bought a copier at a physical public auction (not eBay)
for $500 which is worth maybe $2000 or $3000. The company had gone belly
up. I called the manufacturer for parts and was told that the machine was
on lease and should not have been sold by the auction company. (The
manufacturer handles their own leave contracts.) They said there is a
balance of $34,000 on the machine. They didn't specify, but my guess this
is accrued maintenance and other charges since the machine is about four
or five years old and was only worth maybe $15,000 when it was brand new.
Anyway, I was told that the company's legal department is now looking
into the matter.
My guess is that the manufacturer could sue the auctioneer for selling a
machine he didn't have the right to sell and try to get the machine back.
I could then sue the auctioneer for my costs and damages. But as a
practical matter, my guess is that the manufacturer doesn't want this old
machine back. They just want as much of the $34,000 as they can get. But
I don't see how they will get that either from the bankrupt company, the
auctioneer or me.
Could the manufacturer argue that I bought the machine and all of its
encumbrances?
The auctioneer's terms and conditions include boilerplate that says "sold
as-is without warranty or representation," "sales final," and "purchaser
hold harmless auctioneer for any claim..."
Can I get an analysis of my situation? How should I proceed? I want to
keep the machine if possible.
Offer the company a compromise. You come get the machine, hand me a check
for $2,500 as a recovery fee, and we'll both forget about taking the matter
to court.
Otherwsie, I own the machine lock stock and barrel and your beef is with the
auctioneer.
Involve me in legal action, my attorneys will be directed to counter claim
with no less than a 7 figure amount.
Having purchased said machine under the belief that the auctioneer had legal
rights to do so, I am under no obligation to comply with your demands.
Your other alternative is to bill and collect the former owner.
|
| |
| |
On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 16:01:05 GMT, Alan Bell <alanbno2spam@blk.com> wrote:
My guess is that the manufacturer could sue the auctioneer for selling a
machine he didn't have the right to sell and try to get the machine back. I
could then sue the auctioneer for my costs and damages. But as a practical
matter, my guess is that the manufacturer doesn't want this old machine
back. They just want as much of the $34,000 as they can get. But I don't see
how they will get that either from the bankrupt company, the auctioneer or
me.
Could the manufacturer argue that I bought the machine and all of its
encumbrances?
I think what it amounts to is whether you could get good title in this
situation. There are situations where a bona fide purchaser in good
faith can get title from someone who doesn't have it, but this fact pattern
doesn't seem to match any that I can recall. The general rule is that you
someone can only give you the rights that they themselves possess. That
rule would suggest that you don't own the printer no matter how much you
paid for it.
Perhaps there is a special rule for auctions. Maybe there's something
covering this situation in Article 2 or Article 9 of the UCC.
If the copier was leased, then surely it wasn't being used as security
for any repairs the company did. In fact if it was being leased, it
couldn't really secure anything at all. OTOH sometimes leases are really
disguised sales. If it was a sale, then you may have bought an encumbered
machine.
The auctioneer's terms and conditions include boilerplate that says "sold
as-is without warranty or representation," "sales final," and "purchaser
hold harmless auctioneer for any claim..."
Those words may or may not be effective in this situation.
Isaac
|
| |
| |
Two months ago, I bought a copier at a physical public auction (not eBay)
for $500 which is worth maybe $2000 or $3000. The company had gone belly
up.
I called the manufacturer for parts and was told that the machine was on
lease and should not have been sold by the auction company. (The
manufacturer handles their own leave contracts.) They said there is a
balance of $34,000 on the machine. They didn't specify, but my guess this
is
accrued maintenance and other charges since the machine is about four or
five years old and was only worth maybe $15,000 when it was brand new.
Anyway, I was told that the company's legal department is now looking into
the matter.
My guess is that the manufacturer could sue the auctioneer for selling a
machine he didn't have the right to sell and try to get the machine back.
I
could then sue the auctioneer for my costs and damages. But as a practical
matter, my guess is that the manufacturer doesn't want this old machine
back. They just want as much of the $34,000 as they can get. But I don't
see
how they will get that either from the bankrupt company, the auctioneer or
me.
Could the manufacturer argue that I bought the machine and all of its
encumbrances?
The auctioneer's terms and conditions include boilerplate that says "sold
as-is without warranty or representation," "sales final," and "purchaser
hold harmless auctioneer for any claim..."
Can I get an analysis of my situation? How should I proceed? I want to
keep
the machine if possible.
I don't know enough about security interests to know whether the security
interest of the lessor of a copier would be perfected by recording a notice
of security interest with the state secretary of state. If that happened,
That's the first reason you can't be a bone fide purchaser. The second
reason is that bone fide purchaser status would apply only if you purchased
in the ordinary course of business of the seller. An auction of property of
a BK company is not in the ordinary course of business. Therefore, the
copier doesn't belong to you any more than it belonged to the company that
sold it or to the auctioneer.
But you certainly didn't assume any obligations pertaining to or secured by
the machine. Your possession is subject to an encumbrance (the
manufacturer's claim of ownership), but is not an assumption of any
obligations. Don't worry about that.
I think you should notify the auctioneer that you will hold them responsible
for any loss suffered by their selling you something which neither they nor
their consignor owned. You should notify the BK trustee that they have no
right to hang onto your money. After that, I suggest you wait and see what
happens. If the manufacturer makes any demand for payment, tell them
politely that you have no such obligations and will pay nothing. It may be
that the manufacturer will drop the matter. If they say they want their
machine, tell them to make an appointment to pick it up. It seems to me
unlikely that a manufacturer would want the thing. But if they take it,
make sure they sign a detailed receipt. Send a copy of the receipt to the
auctioneer and the trustee with a demand for reimbursement. It may be that
the manufacturer will go after the money collected from you by the
auctioneer and sent to the BK trustee. After that, it may be that you get
to keep the machine because the manufacturer loses interest.
McGyver
|
| |
| |
Anyway, I was told that the company's legal department is now looking into
the matter.
Well, they "looked into the matter" and changed their computers to show me
as the owner of record. Their lawyer said they were writing off the balance
due. I have nothing in writing reflecting all this, i.e., nothing from them
giving me title, but that's probably too much to expect. But as the
machine's current owner, I was able to buy the part I needed with no
problem.
|
| |
| |
"Alan Bell" <alanbno2spam@blk.com> wrote in
news:DmJDb.407794$275.1281979@attbi_s53:
Well, they "looked into the matter" and changed their computers to
show me as the owner of record. Their lawyer said they were writing
off the balance due. I have nothing in writing reflecting all this,
i.e., nothing from them giving me title, but that's probably too much
to expect. But as the machine's current owner, I was able to buy the
part I needed with no problem.
You should have the bill of sale from the auction, which is probably all
you need.
You might want to make sure that the copier company doesn't try to write
off their claimed balance against your credit record.
|
| |
| |
David W. wrote:
"Alan Bell" <alanbno2spam@blk.com> wrote in
news:DmJDb.407794$275.1281979@attbi_s53:
You should have the bill of sale from the auction, which is probably all
you need.
You might want to make sure that the copier company doesn't try to write
off their claimed balance against your credit record.
Or, the IRS
/dan
|
| |
| |
"David W." <usenet@walc.com.pluto> wrote in message news:<Xns9453C77F9422Cusenetwalccom@216.196.97.136>...
"Alan Bell" <alanbno2spam@blk.com> wrote in
news:DmJDb.407794$275.1281979@attbi_s53:
You should have the bill of sale from the auction, which is probably all
you need.
You might want to make sure that the copier company doesn't try to write
off their claimed balance against your credit record.
In these circumstances it is always useful to write the letter you
want from the copier company yourself.
"Dear -
Per our telecon of (date) my understanding of the situation is as
follows"
then sut out the facts of the telecon especially that you are now the
registered owner and that they have written off the debt, etc.
"If my understanding of the situation is incorrect in any way please
notify me immediately."
This will put the onus on them to let you know if they disagree with
your version of things. Send it registered and get a copy notarized.
FoggyTown
|
| |
| |
From my experience, this is GOOD ADVICE!
Rusty
----------
On 17 Dec 2003 02:21:59 -0800, foggytown@aol.com (Mike Girouard)
wrote:
"David W." <usenet@walc.com.pluto> wrote in message news:<Xns9453C77F9422Cusenetwalccom@216.196.97.136>...
In these circumstances it is always useful to write the letter you
want from the copier company yourself.
"Dear -
Per our telecon of (date) my understanding of the situation is as
follows"
then sut out the facts of the telecon especially that you are now the
registered owner and that they have written off the debt, etc.
"If my understanding of the situation is incorrect in any way please
notify me immediately."
This will put the onus on them to let you know if they disagree with
your version of things. Send it registered and get a copy notarized.
FoggyTown
|
| |
| |
|
