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Hi everybody,
I am a trader and software developer, and trade using an online brokerage
firm. All the trading activity is done through their web site.
I have written a program that allows me to enter trades automatically, by
emulating ceratin features present on the web site. For this I had to
"reverse engineer" the communication protocol between the web site and
server and implemented a new client application that sends and receives
information
the way that the web site would send.
My question is: am I violating the the broker's Terms of Service (TOS)
by writing and/or using such a program. Am I allowed to sell
this software to other clients of this brokerage firm? If I just write the
software and others use it, would I be in violation of TOS?
IMO, this software not only doesn't hurt the brokerage firm, but it brings
them more revenue, because I would trades more actively and thus pay more in
commissions, and also because more potential clients may become actual
clients in order to take advantage of the enhanced capabilitites provided by
the software.
Here is an excerpt from this TOS that is relevant to the question:
"Broker provides secure Internet trading and brokerage services through Web
sites. I agree to receive and transmit financial information through such
electronic means.
Web sites, Content or Information provided by Broker and Information
Providers, and the manner of the provision of the service, individually or
as a whole, are all protected pursuant to U.S. patent, copyright laws,
international treaties or conventions and other laws, and shall remain the
exclusive property of Broker or Information Providers, and no title of
ownership interest will transfer to me.
Web sites are provided to me at no cost, and I agree not to modify, print,
copy, publish, transmit, license, participate in the transfer or sale of,
reproduce, create derivative works from, redistribute, perform, display or
in any way exploit or use the Web site, its content or any feature thereof.
Broker reserves the right at any time, in its discretion and without prior
notice to me, to change, revise, modify, add, upgrade, remove, discontinue
Web sites or Content or Information. Broker may also impose limitation or
restrictions upon and may revoke my access to and my use of Web sites,
Content or Information, in whole or in part, without prior notice."
Any advice would be highly appreciated.
Thank you,
Adrian
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Adrian wrote:
Hi everybody,
I am a trader and software developer, and trade using an online brokerage
firm. All the trading activity is done through their web site.
I have written a program that allows me to enter trades automatically, by
emulating ceratin features present on the web site. For this I had to
"reverse engineer" the communication protocol between the web site and
server and implemented a new client application that sends and receives
information
the way that the web site would send.
My question is: am I violating the the broker's Terms of Service (TOS)
by writing and/or using such a program. Am I allowed to sell
this software to other clients of this brokerage firm? If I just write
the software and others use it, would I be in violation of TOS?
IMO, this software not only doesn't hurt the brokerage firm, but it
brings them more revenue, because I would trades more actively and thus
pay more in commissions, and also because more potential clients may
become actual clients in order to take advantage of the enhanced
capabilitites provided by the software.
Here is an excerpt from this TOS that is relevant to the question:
"Broker provides secure Internet trading and brokerage services through
Web sites. I agree to receive and transmit financial information through
such electronic means.
Web sites, Content or Information provided by Broker and Information
Providers, and the manner of the provision of the service, individually
or as a whole, are all protected pursuant to U.S. patent, copyright laws,
international treaties or conventions and other laws, and shall remain
the exclusive property of Broker or Information Providers, and no title
of ownership interest will transfer to me.
Web sites are provided to me at no cost, and I agree not to modify,
print, copy, publish, transmit, license, participate in the transfer or
sale of, reproduce, create derivative works from, redistribute, perform,
display or in any way exploit or use the Web site, its content or any
feature thereof.
Broker reserves the right at any time, in its discretion and without
prior notice to me, to change, revise, modify, add, upgrade, remove,
discontinue Web sites or Content or Information. Broker may also impose
limitation or restrictions upon and may revoke my access to and my use of
Web sites, Content or Information, in whole or in part, without prior
notice."
Any advice would be highly appreciated.
Thank you,
Adrian
Question is, that TOS legal?
"...is protected by patents, copyrights....and other laws"??????????
Copyrights maybe. Only on their original work. They did not create the
method by which the information is passed on.
i.e., the internet, html, javascript, php and so forth.
Patents? On what? Unless they show the patent #'s or the sources of the
information, it's a joke.
Sounds to me like somebody just copied somebody else's TOS and threw it in.
Your program sounds intersting though. Problem is, content of a website can
change and if a web manager knows how your program works, he could possibly
manipulate your progam and provide, or seed, it with information that may be
totally wrong.
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I want speak to the legal possibilities. My gut reaction is reverse
engineering
will get you in trouble. It wasnt done via a "clean room".
However if it was my brokerage... I'd just change the website a little.
Maybe
someone using your purchase code would sell 1000 shares instead of 10?
Anything is possible. They can change their site at the drop of a hat.
Then who'd be liable for the incorrect trades?
Hi everybody,
I am a trader and software developer, and trade using an online brokerage
firm. All the trading activity is done through their web site.
I have written a program that allows me to enter trades automatically, by
emulating ceratin features present on the web site. For this I had to
"reverse engineer" the communication protocol between the web site and
server and implemented a new client application that sends and receives
information
the way that the web site would send.
My question is: am I violating the the broker's Terms of Service (TOS)
by writing and/or using such a program. Am I allowed to sell
this software to other clients of this brokerage firm? If I just write the
software and others use it, would I be in violation of TOS?
IMO, this software not only doesn't hurt the brokerage firm, but it brings
them more revenue, because I would trades more actively and thus pay more
in
commissions, and also because more potential clients may become actual
clients in order to take advantage of the enhanced capabilitites provided
by
the software.
Here is an excerpt from this TOS that is relevant to the question:
"Broker provides secure Internet trading and brokerage services through
Web
sites. I agree to receive and transmit financial information through such
electronic means.
Web sites, Content or Information provided by Broker and Information
Providers, and the manner of the provision of the service, individually or
as a whole, are all protected pursuant to U.S. patent, copyright laws,
international treaties or conventions and other laws, and shall remain the
exclusive property of Broker or Information Providers, and no title of
ownership interest will transfer to me.
Web sites are provided to me at no cost, and I agree not to modify,
print,
copy, publish, transmit, license, participate in the transfer or sale of,
reproduce, create derivative works from, redistribute, perform, display or
in any way exploit or use the Web site, its content or any feature
thereof.
Broker reserves the right at any time, in its discretion and without prior
notice to me, to change, revise, modify, add, upgrade, remove, discontinue
Web sites or Content or Information. Broker may also impose limitation or
restrictions upon and may revoke my access to and my use of Web sites,
Content or Information, in whole or in part, without prior notice."
Any advice would be highly appreciated.
Thank you,
Adrian
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I want speak to the legal possibilities. My gut reaction is reverse
engineering
will get you in trouble. It wasnt done via a "clean room".
However if it was my brokerage... I'd just change the website a little.
Maybe
someone using your purchase code would sell 1000 shares instead of 10?
Anything is possible. They can change their site at the drop of a hat.
Then who'd be liable for the incorrect trades?
That is a possibility, and I put it in my own License Agreement :)
But the reality is that this is a quite big brokerage firm, with hundreds of
thousands of customers, and they don't change their technology
infrastructure very often, because it costs a lot, because it presents a
risk to customers etc. There are products out there that exploit other
aspects of their services such as real time quotes, in a similar way, and
they have been around for several years.
I am less afraid of them making changes than of getting sued or my account
being terminated.
Adrian
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Besides the fact that the TOS says you're not supposed to modify anything,
which in effect you have done ... the brokerage would be wise to shut down
your online account because of a problem you are not seeing. Your interface
is not well tested with the server side of the system, and even if you think
it is, you have done only a fraction of the testing that a real product
unergoes, and the only way you can test it is with live trades and live
money (out of your own account). You are at the mercy of the brokerage who
might make a change, and you cannot assume they will not make a change
simply because they are large and many copies of their client software have
already been distributed, and all consequences will be upon you and not upon
the brokerage, and they have warned you so. If your trading software is so
clever, offer to sell them your features but do not be vulnerable to their
changes.
Hi everybody,
I am a trader and software developer, and trade using an online brokerage
firm. All the trading activity is done through their web site.
I have written a program that allows me to enter trades automatically, by
emulating ceratin features present on the web site. For this I had to
"reverse engineer" the communication protocol between the web site and
server and implemented a new client application that sends and receives
information
the way that the web site would send.
My question is: am I violating the the broker's Terms of Service (TOS)
by writing and/or using such a program. Am I allowed to sell
this software to other clients of this brokerage firm? If I just write the
software and others use it, would I be in violation of TOS?
IMO, this software not only doesn't hurt the brokerage firm, but it brings
them more revenue, because I would trades more actively and thus pay more
in
commissions, and also because more potential clients may become actual
clients in order to take advantage of the enhanced capabilitites provided
by
the software.
Here is an excerpt from this TOS that is relevant to the question:
"Broker provides secure Internet trading and brokerage services through
Web
sites. I agree to receive and transmit financial information through such
electronic means.
Web sites, Content or Information provided by Broker and Information
Providers, and the manner of the provision of the service, individually or
as a whole, are all protected pursuant to U.S. patent, copyright laws,
international treaties or conventions and other laws, and shall remain the
exclusive property of Broker or Information Providers, and no title of
ownership interest will transfer to me.
Web sites are provided to me at no cost, and I agree not to modify,
print,
copy, publish, transmit, license, participate in the transfer or sale of,
reproduce, create derivative works from, redistribute, perform, display or
in any way exploit or use the Web site, its content or any feature
thereof.
Broker reserves the right at any time, in its discretion and without prior
notice to me, to change, revise, modify, add, upgrade, remove, discontinue
Web sites or Content or Information. Broker may also impose limitation or
restrictions upon and may revoke my access to and my use of Web sites,
Content or Information, in whole or in part, without prior notice."
Any advice would be highly appreciated.
Thank you,
Adrian
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Thanks for your answer.
Besides the fact that the TOS says you're not supposed to modify anything,
which in effect you have done ... the brokerage would be wise to shut down
your online account because of a problem you are not seeing. Your
interface
is not well tested with the server side of the system, and even if you
think
it is, you have done only a fraction of the testing that a real product
unergoes, and the only way you can test it is with live trades and live
money (out of your own account). You are at the mercy of the brokerage who
might make a change, and you cannot assume they will not make a change
simply because they are large and many copies of their client software
have
already been distributed, and all consequences will be upon you and not
upon
the brokerage, and they have warned you so. If your trading software is so
clever, offer to sell them your features but do not be vulnerable to their
changes.
Not only have I tested it, but I am using it myself to place real trades
with real money during market hours.
I am not assuming that they will not make changes ever, but I am rather
counting on the fact that these changes will be rare enough and
pre-announced that I will be able to adapt the software in a timely manner.
They are now in the middle of such a change, and they notified all their
clients of it about 1 1/2 months ago, they started the changes a couple of
weeks ago for some customers, and they will be done with all the accounts by
the end of the first quarter 2004.
I think it's a good idea though to talk to them, and this is what I will
do - I have other products and ideas that may be of interest to them.
Thanks,
Adrian
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Adrian wrote:
That is a possibility, and I put it in my own License Agreement :)
But the reality is that this is a quite big brokerage firm, with hundreds
of thousands of customers, and they don't change their technology
infrastructure very often, because it costs a lot, because it presents a
risk to customers etc. There are products out there that exploit other
aspects of their services such as real time quotes, in a similar way, and
they have been around for several years.
I am less afraid of them making changes than of getting sued or my
account being terminated.
Adrian
True. But let's look at their end. They're paying for the space and the
bandwidth, you come along, and all of a sudden their bandwidth charges go
through the roof.
They find out why, you get charged and sued.
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Adrian wrote:
Thanks for your answer.
interface
think
have
upon
Not only have I tested it, but I am using it myself to place real trades
with real money during market hours.
I am not assuming that they will not make changes ever, but I am rather
counting on the fact that these changes will be rare enough and
pre-announced that I will be able to adapt the software in a timely
manner. They are now in the middle of such a change, and they notified
all their clients of it about 1 1/2 months ago, they started the changes
a couple of weeks ago for some customers, and they will be done with all
the accounts by the end of the first quarter 2004.
I think it's a good idea though to talk to them, and this is what I will
do - I have other products and ideas that may be of interest to them.
Thanks,
Adrian
They are not required to notify clients of changes on the website.
As was pointed out, a simple keystroke could change your output royally.
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I am a trader and software developer, and trade using an online brokerage
firm. All the trading activity is done through their web site.
I have written a program that allows me to enter trades automatically, by
emulating ceratin features present on the web site. For this I had to
"reverse engineer" the communication protocol between the web site and
server and implemented a new client application that sends and receives
information
the way that the web site would send.
Assume, for example, that the protocol (done over standard SSL)
is a standard HTTP GET request, something like:
http://www.bigbroker.com/cgi-bin/trade.cgi?symbol=GEEK&trade=0&price=108&qty=100
Which means Sell (trade = 0) 100 shares GEEK @ $1.08/share.
During a maintenance interval, they take the page and CGI down,
cancel all the sessions so everyone has to log in again, and modify
the 'price' parameter so it's no longer an integer quantity of cents
(this change being made so you can trade penny stocks), but a dollar
amount (with decimal point, and not necessarily two decimal places
after the decimal point). The Javascript on the page is updated
so what the user types in is exactly the same as before (with the
decimal point). Also, the variable 'trade' is renamed to buy_sell,
and it defaults to BUY if it's not provided. Again, what the user
sees or enters on the page is not changed. You can now enter
fractional-cent prices for trading penny stocks, but trading on
that market won't be ready for a few months while policy issues
are settled.
NOW, after the page comes back up, your same transaction means Buy
100 shares GEEK @ $108.00/share. BIG change in the price. Buy
instead of sell. (If you really want to buy GEEK at $108/share,
I've got some I'm willing to sell.)
From the point of view of the broker, there is no reason to announce
a change at all, given that he does not know about your software.
My question is: am I violating the the broker's Terms of Service (TOS)
by writing and/or using such a program. Am I allowed to sell
this software to other clients of this brokerage firm? If I just write the
software and others use it, would I be in violation of TOS?
It is almost certainly in violation of the TOS if the people using
your software don't have their own trading accounts, although I
don't think that's what you meant.
IMO, this software not only doesn't hurt the brokerage firm, but it brings
them more revenue, because I would trades more actively and thus pay more in
commissions, and also because more potential clients may become actual
clients in order to take advantage of the enhanced capabilitites provided by
the software.
The brokerage firm may not want to risk having tech support calls
and/or disputed transactions caused by your software, whether it
gets them more business or not.
Here is an excerpt from this TOS that is relevant to the question:
"Broker provides secure Internet trading and brokerage services through Web
sites. I agree to receive and transmit financial information through such
electronic means.
Ok, I see no problem here.
Web sites, Content or Information provided by Broker and Information
Providers, and the manner of the provision of the service, individually or
as a whole, are all protected pursuant to U.S. patent, copyright laws,
international treaties or conventions and other laws, and shall remain the
exclusive property of Broker or Information Providers, and no title of
ownership interest will transfer to me.
You aren't copying the PAGE, you're copying the names of a few
CGI variables. I'm not sure that's enough to involve a copyright issue.
Web sites are provided to me at no cost, and I agree not to modify, print,
copy, publish, transmit, license, participate in the transfer or sale of,
reproduce, create derivative works from, redistribute, perform, display or
in any way exploit or use the Web site, its content or any feature thereof.
From this part of the terms, it appears to me that not only can you
not use your software, you can't buy and sell stocks with a standard
browser either. I don't think they really mean that, but that seems
to be what it says.
Broker reserves the right at any time, in its discretion and without prior
notice to me, to change, revise, modify, add, upgrade, remove, discontinue
Web sites or Content or Information.
In other words, the protocol may change at any time, with no notice
with disastrous results for people using your software, simply because
you did not know of the change. That makes using your software really
dangerous, even if it works fine currently.
Broker may also impose limitation or
restrictions upon and may revoke my access to and my use of Web sites,
Content or Information, in whole or in part, without prior notice."
This sounds like a catch-all that they might need to use the first
time someone disputes a transaction because the software automatically
did something the user regrets later (possibly after the price moves
in the wrong direction, and regardless of whether the fault was
the user or the software author).
Gordon L. Burditt
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From a technical standpoint I totally agree with you that it would be very
easy to change the requests and responses to prevent users from using any
third party software.
But as somebody who has spent many years working in the software industry, I
know that once a large software system is deployed, such changes go through
very rigurous procedures and they don't happen very often. Again, I am much
more preocupied with violating their terms of service than with the changes
that they may make to their protocols - I know how to deal with this.
Anyway, I have decided to ask the brokerage firm what they think about this
software, and that will settle the issue - who knows, they may even be
excited about the idea :)
Thanks all for your input!
Adrian
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