|
|
|
CPE Exam Quagmire
My wife is Japanese. She is a student at La Guardia Community College.
She has completed almost all her required course work to get her AA
degree in February.
However, there is a new requirement. In order to get her degree, she
must also pass a CPE Exam. This is a very hard exam of English writing
ability. Most Americans could not pass it and it will be almost
impossible for a foreigner to pass.
Please take a look at
http://www.lagcc.cuny.edu/wid/cpe.htm
My wife has already passed all three sections of the much easier ACT
Exam, but several of her fellow students from Japan have failed that
exam several times and have given up trying and are going back to
Japan, having wasted their time in America.
My wife has a classmate who is a native born American and an English
major who writes critiques of Shakespeare, and he just got his result
back. He failed the CPE Exam and is protesting loudly.
I am not sure that I could pass. I am fairly certain that my wife will
never be able to pass it.
She has already failed it twice. She has her third chance this
Thursday. If she fails it again she is out. She cannot take it again,
and will never be allowed to get her AA Degree.
This seems to me to be very unfair and indeed illegal. She has been a
student at La Guardia Community for three years since February 2001.
If she had known about this new test, she could have gone to another
school and would not have wasted her time trying to get a degree she
will never be able to get.
Her major is accounting. It seems to me that it is unfair and
inappropriate to require majors in math, computer science, accounting
and similar subjects to have to pass a test of very high English
writing ability.
They have given her an essay to read. Half of the test on Thursday
will be on that Essay. The title of the essay is: "The Paradox of
American Power" by Joseph S. Nye. It is a chapter from a book by the
same name. It is very high level reading by a former Under-Secretary
of State. It even uses words which are not in the dictionary. Again, I
doubt that I could pass this test myself.
Here is a sentence from the first page of the essay upon which this
test will be based:
"The new unilateralist [when a nation acts on its own without
consulting other nations or even allies] recognizes the uniqueness of
the unipolar world we now inhabit."
However, the word "unipolar" does not exist. The phrase "the
uniqueness of the unipolar world we now inhabit" is nonsense. In
addition, the word "unilateralist" does not exits. So, this one
sentence contains two words which are not recognized by any
dictionary.
What is your opinion of this? Do you think it is fair to require that
she pass this new test in order to graduate? Should not this test only
be required of new students who were told about it before they first
entered college? Can she sue?
Sam Sloan
|
| |
| |
From: sloan@ishipress.com (Sam Sloan)
Hmmm....that's odd, unipolar and unilateral are both in my dictionary
How amazing, a college that wants to make sure its graduates can read.....what
a novel approach......
I think you shouldn't consider suing the college but instead consider suing the
high schools that allowed you to graduate without basic reading skills.....
CPE Exam Quagmire
My wife is Japanese. She is a student at La Guardia Community College.
She has completed almost all her required course work to get her AA
degree in February.
However, there is a new requirement. In order to get her degree, she
must also pass a CPE Exam. This is a very hard exam of English writing
ability. Most Americans could not pass it and it will be almost
impossible for a foreigner to pass.
Please take a look at
http://www.lagcc.cuny.edu/wid/cpe.htm
My wife has already passed all three sections of the much easier ACT
Exam, but several of her fellow students from Japan have failed that
exam several times and have given up trying and are going back to
Japan, having wasted their time in America.
My wife has a classmate who is a native born American and an English
major who writes critiques of Shakespeare, and he just got his result
back. He failed the CPE Exam and is protesting loudly.
I am not sure that I could pass. I am fairly certain that my wife will
never be able to pass it.
She has already failed it twice. She has her third chance this
Thursday. If she fails it again she is out. She cannot take it again,
and will never be allowed to get her AA Degree.
This seems to me to be very unfair and indeed illegal. She has been a
student at La Guardia Community for three years since February 2001.
If she had known about this new test, she could have gone to another
school and would not have wasted her time trying to get a degree she
will never be able to get.
Her major is accounting. It seems to me that it is unfair and
inappropriate to require majors in math, computer science, accounting
and similar subjects to have to pass a test of very high English
writing ability.
They have given her an essay to read. Half of the test on Thursday
will be on that Essay. The title of the essay is: "The Paradox of
American Power" by Joseph S. Nye. It is a chapter from a book by the
same name. It is very high level reading by a former Under-Secretary
of State. It even uses words which are not in the dictionary. Again, I
doubt that I could pass this test myself.
Here is a sentence from the first page of the essay upon which this
test will be based:
"The new unilateralist [when a nation acts on its own without
consulting other nations or even allies] recognizes the uniqueness of
the unipolar world we now inhabit."
However, the word "unipolar" does not exist. The phrase "the
uniqueness of the unipolar world we now inhabit" is nonsense. In
addition, the word "unilateralist" does not exits. So, this one
sentence contains two words which are not recognized by any
dictionary.
What is your opinion of this? Do you think it is fair to require that
she pass this new test in order to graduate? Should not this test only
be required of new students who were told about it before they first
entered college? Can she sue?
Sam Sloan
|
| |
| |
sloan@ishipress.com (Sam Sloan) writes:
This seems to me to be very unfair and indeed illegal. She has been a
student at La Guardia Community for three years since February 2001.
If she had known about this new test, she could have gone to another
school and would not have wasted her time trying to get a degree she
will never be able to get.
Certainly the requirement has to be disclosed when the student enters.
There were a few times when my school added new requirements for
graduation, but they applied only to new incoming students, not those
who were already enrolled when the new requirement was added.
Her major is accounting. It seems to me that it is unfair and
inappropriate to require majors in math, computer science, accounting
and similar subjects to have to pass a test of very high English
writing ability.
I don't think so. I was a math major and had to take two reading and
composition classes or get a 4 or 5 on the English AP exam in order to
graduate from my school (I took the two classes). There were also
requirements for something called "Subject A" (basic writing) and US
History, which I got out of by passing tests in those subjects. This
is normal in college-level education, having some requirements to make
sure the graduates aren't completely one-sided geeks. My school also
had basic math and science requirements that English majors had to
pass, for the same reason.
I think it's completely correct for schools to have such requirements,
but it's reasonable to ask whether such-and-such a specific
requirement is harder than it should be (the basic science classes
should certainly discuss the law of gravity, but needn't go into
advanced particle physics).
"The new unilateralist [when a nation acts on its own without
consulting other nations or even allies] recognizes the uniqueness of
the unipolar world we now inhabit."
However, the word "unipolar" does not exist. The phrase "the
uniqueness of the unipolar world we now inhabit" is nonsense. In
addition, the word "unilateralist" does not exits. So, this one
sentence contains two words which are not recognized by any
dictionary.
A unilateralist is someone who believes in unilateral action, like the
US invading Iraq. That's not hard to figure out. Unipolar world
means a world dominated by a single superpower. Uniqueness of the
unipolar world we now inhabit means that this is a new situation which
hasn't previously occurred in history. These terms have been used in
political discussions for a number of years. See for example the book
"Unipolar Politics: Realism and State Strategies After the Cold War"
by Ethan B. Kapstein and Michael Mastanduno, Columbia University Press
1999.
What is your opinion of this? Do you think it is fair to require that
she pass this new test in order to graduate? Should not this test only
be required of new students who were told about it before they first
entered college? Can she sue?
I think the problem with that test isn't the knowledge of English it
requires to pass, as much as the knowledge of political culture. So,
it's reasonable if the test is given at the end of a course that
discusses the political stuff, but not so great if no such preparation
is offered. It can be that they're testing the ability to read the
essay and figure out from context what it's talking about.
At my school, they had a history test like that which was pretty hard
(I passed on the second try), but passing only meant you got out of
taking a class in the subject. You could graduate without taking the
test, if you instead sat through a semester long class which involved
turning in several papers of comparable difficulty but for which you
were prepared by the class lectures.
The web site you linked mentions that there are reading materials
connected with the test. Did your wife study the reading materials
before taking the test the last two times?
|
| |
| |
At 12:08 AM 1/12/2004 -0000, Jeff Bennett wrote:
She entered college without knowing the requirements to graduate?!?
Caveat emptor
Jeff
You seem to have missed the point. At the time she entered the
college, this requirement did not exist. This is a new requirement
established just this past year. This is a requirement for all
students, including Art majors and majors in fields unrelated to
English competency.
Also, did you look at the page at
http://www.lagcc.cuny.edu/wid/cpe.htm
If you look at you will see that to pass this test requires competence
far beyond that normally required of college graduates. In fact, I
doubt that anybody on this group could pass that test easily.
Sam Sloan
|
| |
| |
sloan@ishipress.com (Sam Sloan) writes:
If you look at you will see that to pass this test requires competence
far beyond that normally required of college graduates. In fact, I
doubt that anybody on this group could pass that test easily.
That test doesn't look harder than what everyone at my school had to
do in order to graduate. However, that was a 4-year school with
supposedly somewhat harder academics than most of the state school
system. I don't know how an AA program at a junior college would
compare. Also, as mentioned, at my school you could get out of taking
those tests by taking and passing some extra classes instead, though
those involved even larger amounts of essay writing.
I see in the test blurb that students receive the reading selection
two weeks before the exam. That should give them plenty of time to
discuss the selection with their instructor and catch up on mysterious
words like "unipolar". So I don't think the test is unreasonably
hard.
However, I agree with you that when a school adds new graduation
requirements for its students, those requirements shouldn't apply to
students who are already enrolled at the time.
|
| |
| |
Sam - this is a very difficult test for a non-native English language
speaker! As you note below many - even most native American speakers will
fail the test. I recently posted a statistic which cited a 25% functional
illiteracy rate among the general population in the USA, and a further 25%
who could not [verbally, emotionally they could!] understand the language
and logical presentation of ideas in your message.
Terms such as 'unipolar' and 'unilateralist' are far from any normal
expression, and in my opinion, should be challenged as academic formulations
unknown even to most of the populace. They are even difficult
linguistically, since the acculturated antonym of uni in the first case is
'bi' and in the second, 'multi', although one could also be 'bi-lateral',
and in the case of a few posters here possibly 'multi-polar.'
You are probably on a hiding-to-nothing to challenge the situation legally
on a singular basis (only for your wife) and I am personally appalled that
these ugly latinized English words now constitute a hurdle to citizenship.
Ugly Americanisms? The very properly spoken Queen Victoria said "ain't"
which aint in Microsoft's dictionary, and as you also note, neither is
'unipolar' or 'unilateral'.
Phil Innes
CPE Exam Quagmire
My wife is Japanese. She is a student at La Guardia Community College.
She has completed almost all her required course work to get her AA
degree in February.
However, there is a new requirement. In order to get her degree, she
must also pass a CPE Exam. This is a very hard exam of English writing
ability. Most Americans could not pass it and it will be almost
impossible for a foreigner to pass.
Please take a look at
http://www.lagcc.cuny.edu/wid/cpe.htm
My wife has already passed all three sections of the much easier ACT
Exam, but several of her fellow students from Japan have failed that
exam several times and have given up trying and are going back to
Japan, having wasted their time in America.
My wife has a classmate who is a native born American and an English
major who writes critiques of Shakespeare, and he just got his result
back. He failed the CPE Exam and is protesting loudly.
I am not sure that I could pass. I am fairly certain that my wife will
never be able to pass it.
She has already failed it twice. She has her third chance this
Thursday. If she fails it again she is out. She cannot take it again,
and will never be allowed to get her AA Degree.
This seems to me to be very unfair and indeed illegal. She has been a
student at La Guardia Community for three years since February 2001.
If she had known about this new test, she could have gone to another
school and would not have wasted her time trying to get a degree she
will never be able to get.
Her major is accounting. It seems to me that it is unfair and
inappropriate to require majors in math, computer science, accounting
and similar subjects to have to pass a test of very high English
writing ability.
They have given her an essay to read. Half of the test on Thursday
will be on that Essay. The title of the essay is: "The Paradox of
American Power" by Joseph S. Nye. It is a chapter from a book by the
same name. It is very high level reading by a former Under-Secretary
of State. It even uses words which are not in the dictionary. Again, I
doubt that I could pass this test myself.
Here is a sentence from the first page of the essay upon which this
test will be based:
"The new unilateralist [when a nation acts on its own without
consulting other nations or even allies] recognizes the uniqueness of
the unipolar world we now inhabit."
However, the word "unipolar" does not exist. The phrase "the
uniqueness of the unipolar world we now inhabit" is nonsense. In
addition, the word "unilateralist" does not exits. So, this one
sentence contains two words which are not recognized by any
dictionary.
What is your opinion of this? Do you think it is fair to require that
she pass this new test in order to graduate? Should not this test only
be required of new students who were told about it before they first
entered college? Can she sue?
Sam Sloan
|
| |
| |
Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx@NOSPAM.invalid> wrote in
news:7xu1329eei.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com:
sloan@ishipress.com (Sam Sloan) writes:
That test doesn't look harder than what everyone at my school had to
do in order to graduate. However, that was a 4-year school with
supposedly somewhat harder academics than most of the state school
system. I don't know how an AA program at a junior college would
compare. Also, as mentioned, at my school you could get out of taking
those tests by taking and passing some extra classes instead, though
those involved even larger amounts of essay writing.
I see in the test blurb that students receive the reading selection
two weeks before the exam. That should give them plenty of time to
discuss the selection with their instructor and catch up on mysterious
words like "unipolar". So I don't think the test is unreasonably
hard.
However, I agree with you that when a school adds new graduation
requirements for its students, those requirements shouldn't apply to
students who are already enrolled at the time.
I guess the biggest problem I see is that this CPE exam is as much about
testing the student's understanding of the topic of the essays as it is
about comprehension and writing ability. So what happens if I really know
nothing about critical learning and the utility of error? If I don't
understand the topic, I can't graduate? I can see where this could be a
really big problem with cross-cultural students.
|
| |
| |
On 11 Jan 2004 16:52:37 -0800, Paul Rubin
<http://phr.cx@NOSPAM.invalid> wrote:
I see in the test blurb that students receive the reading selection
two weeks before the exam. That should give them plenty of time to
discuss the selection with their instructor and catch up on mysterious
words like "unipolar". So I don't think the test is unreasonably
hard.
There are two reading sections for this test. One is given two weeks
before the test. This one I have. It is a 9-page essay entitled: "The
Paradox of American Power" by Joseph S. Nye.
The second essay is given during the test. The student must read,
compare and contrast the two essays.
Another of my complaints is that they are requiring the students to
write according to a formula. Every paragraph must have a main idea
and several examples of supporting evidence. This is nice, but real
writers do not write according to a formula. Also, as she has already
taken and passed four classes in English, ESL97, ESL98, ESL99 and
English 101 plus she has taken the TOEFL Test., several English
Language tests and all three sections of the ACT Test, she felt that
her test taking days were over and all she needed to do was to pass
the various courses required for her degree. Most of the other members
of her group who entered in February 2001 did not make the cut or have
dropped out. She is the only one who has completed her requirements
and is ready to graduate now. Of course, she has an advantage most of
the other girls do not enjoy. She is living with me, who speaks
English to her every day.
Since she has taken all these English courses, I have seen the
assignments given by her teachers. Her class assignments have been
poorly written, filled with spelling mistakes and grammatical errors.
Her English teachers are obviously poor writers. One short story she
was given as an assignment was only one sentence long. That one
sentence was ten pages long, and a poor translation from Spanish. That
was cute, but hardly a good example by which to teach English. I feel
certain that none of her English teachers can pass the test she is now
being required to pass.
Sam Sloan
|
| |
| |
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 23:11:55 GMT, sloan@ishipress.com (Sam Sloan)
wrote:
Here is a sentence from the first page of the essay upon which this
test will be based:
"The new unilateralist [when a nation acts on its own without
consulting other nations or even allies] recognizes the uniqueness of
the unipolar world we now inhabit."
However, the word "unipolar" does not exist. The phrase "the
uniqueness of the unipolar world we now inhabit" is nonsense.
From the American Heritage Dictionary on Yahoo!:
UNIPOLAR
SYLLABICATION: unipolar
PRONUNCIATION: AUDIO: yn-plr KEY
ADJECTIVE: 1. Having, acting by means of, or produced by a single
magnetic or electric pole.
2. Biology Having a single fibrous process. Used of a neuron
In
addition, the word "unilateralist" does not exits. So, this one
sentence contains two words which are not recognized by any
dictionary.
From the American Heritage Dictionary on Yahoo!:
UNILATERALISM
SYLLABICATION: unilateralism
PRONUNCIATION: AUDIO: yn-ltr--lzm KEY
NOUN: A tendency of nations to conduct their foreign affairs
individualistically, characterized by minimal consultation and
involvement with other nations, even their allies.
OTHER FORMS: unilateralist ADJECTIVE & NOUN
Phil
|
| |
| |
sloan@ishipress.com (Sam Sloan) writes:
There are two reading sections for this test. One is given two weeks
before the test. This one I have. It is a 9-page essay entitled: "The
Paradox of American Power" by Joseph S. Nye.
The complete title of that book is "The Paradox of American Power: Why
the Worlds Only Superpower Cant Go It Alone" and its subject matter
seems to be U.S. unilateralism. Here's a paragraph of one of the
Amazon reviews:
I think this book is interesting and important reading material for
those who want to understand what is happening nowadays, and why USA
"can't go it alone". Nye says, among other things, that the world is
no longer the realm of an unipolar power (USA). According to him, it
is necessary to distinguish three dimensions of power.
I'm sure that the book (and presumably the 9 page extract) explains
well enough what unilateralism is, and so not knowing the word ahead
of time is irrelevant. It's a test of comprehension and so you're
supposed to learn something from the actual reading.
The second essay is given during the test. The student must read,
compare and contrast the two essays.
That sounds like a reasonable approach. The first essay is given to
the student two weeks before the test. The second one, given during
the test, is much shorter. Then you compare them.
Another of my complaints is that they are requiring the students to
write according to a formula. Every paragraph must have a main idea
and several examples of supporting evidence. This is nice, but real
writers do not write according to a formula.
So what? For the purpose of that test, if they say to write in a
particular style during it, then write in that style during it. It's
a serviceable style, even though not everyone would want to stick to
it all the time in normal circumstances.
Since she has taken all these English courses, I have seen the
assignments given by her teachers. Her class assignments have been
poorly written, filled with spelling mistakes and grammatical errors.
In my experience, college level writing programs are aiming to improve
students' skills at analysis and organizing one's writing. When a
non-native speaker makes spelling and grammatical errors, they don't
get marked down more than slightly, as long as their essays are
well-organized and do a good job presenting evidence and arguments.
My own school had three semesters of reading and composition
requirements: one semester called "Subject A" which I got out of by
taking a test, and two semesters which I actually had to take the
classes for. I was annoyed at having to take those two classes since
I felt I was already a good writer before I took them, and they were a
lot of work, but I found that they really did improve my writing, and
so I'm glad I took them.
That CPE test looks pretty similar to the Subject A test that I took.
I remember being pissed at getting a low but passing grade on that
test, because it seemed to me that the test wasn't asking reasonable
questions. But after taking the two required classes, I understood
much better what the Subject A exam was looking for, and I'm sure I
would have done much better if I took it after taking those two other
classes instead of before.
So if your wife is concerned about passing that test, maybe she should
take another writing class first.
|
| |
| |
On 11 Jan 2004 18:06:35 -0800, Paul Rubin
<http://phr.cx@NOSPAM.invalid> wrote:
Since she has taken all these English courses, I have seen the
assignments given by her teachers. Her class assignments have been
poorly written, filled with spelling mistakes and grammatical errors.
In my experience, college level writing programs are aiming to improve
students' skills at analysis and organizing one's writing. When a
non-native speaker makes spelling and grammatical errors, they don't
get marked down more than slightly, as long as their essays are
well-organized and do a good job presenting evidence and arguments.
Perhaps you did not understand or I did not explain it clearly. The
class assignments WRITTEN BY THE TEACHERS contained numerous spelling
mistakes and grammatical errors. It was obvous that the ENGLISH
TEACHERS were not good writers, could not spell, Etc.
Of course, they were teaching at La Guardia Community College. What do
you expect? This is not exactly Harvard University.
My own school had three semesters of reading and composition
requirements: one semester called "Subject A" which I got out of by
taking a test, and two semesters which I actually had to take the
classes for. I was annoyed at having to take those two classes since
I felt I was already a good writer before I took them, and they were a
lot of work, but I found that they really did improve my writing, and
so I'm glad I took them.
That CPE test looks pretty similar to the Subject A test that I took.
I remember being pissed at getting a low but passing grade on that
test, because it seemed to me that the test wasn't asking reasonable
questions. But after taking the two required classes, I understood
much better what the Subject A exam was looking for, and I'm sure I
would have done much better if I took it after taking those two other
classes instead of before.
I am very familiar with Subject A because I went to the University of
California at Berkeley which also had Subject A. I did not have to
take it because I scored 673 on my verbal SAT Test and so was exempt.
However, my roommate John Canney who was from Salinas, California had
to take Subject A. He failed Subject A and flunked out of college. I
have looked him up and he has died.
From what I have seen, the CPE Exam is considerably more difficult
than Subject A.
By the way, I still remember the subject of Subject A. It was an essay
question on whether the US was justified in dropping the A-Bomb on
Hiroshima. To pass the test, you had to write the bomb should not have
been dropped. I kept getting into fights are arguments with my
roommate John Canney over this, especially when I brought up the fact
that my uncle had dropped the A-Bomb on Nagasaki.
Sam Sloan
|
| |
| |
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 23:11:55 GMT, sloan@ishipress.com (Sam Sloan)
wrote:
However, the word "unipolar" does not exist. The phrase "the
uniqueness of the unipolar world we now inhabit" is nonsense. In
addition, the word "unilateralist" does not exits. So, this one
sentence contains two words which are not recognized by any
dictionary.
Sure the words exist and they are defined in online dictionaries
first of all, though the dictionary definition of unipolar may not be
much help since it is a bit simple.
UNIPOLAR
WordNet Dictionary
Definition: [adj] having a single pole
Antonyms: bipolar
UNILATERALIST
Matching Terms: unilateralism
WordNet Dictionary
Definition:
1. [n] an advocate of unilateralism
2. [adj] tracing descent from either the paternal or the maternal
line only
Synonyms: direct, lineal, unilateral
See Also: advocate, advocator, exponent, proponent
The sentence is not very good, but it's not nonsensical in the
context of the piece probably. Here they are most likely asking
people to get an overall view of what the man was saying not
to parse each sentence.
--
Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
|
| |
| |
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 23:11:55 GMT, sloan@ishipress.com (Sam Sloan)
wrote:
My wife is Japanese. She is a student at La Guardia Community College.
She has completed almost all her required course work to get her AA
degree in February.
However, there is a new requirement. In order to get her degree, she
must also pass a CPE Exam. This is a very hard exam of English writing
ability. Most Americans could not pass it and it will be almost
impossible for a foreigner to pass.
Please take a look at
http://www.lagcc.cuny.edu/wid/cpe.htm
I looked at the website. It has some pretty clear criteria in terms
of how tutors and profs can help students prepare for this exam.
Has your wife taken advantage of any of these?
Does she have a professor who acts as her advisor? Did she
have to take an English class and if so, can she talk to that
professor about preparing for the test?
My wife has already passed all three sections of the much easier ACT
Exam, but several of her fellow students from Japan have failed that
exam several times and have given up trying and are going back to
Japan, having wasted their time in America.
The ACT is for kids entering college. It's not an exit test.
My wife has a classmate who is a native born American and an English
major who writes critiques of Shakespeare, and he just got his result
back. He failed the CPE Exam and is protesting loudly.
He can protest. I wish him luck, but I have to wonder if his
Shakespearian background is not hurting rather than helping
with articles like the one you have quoted.
I am not sure that I could pass. I am fairly certain that my wife will
never be able to pass it.
Stay positive. By being negative you will only increase her
test anxiety which does not help her.
She has already failed it twice. She has her third chance this
Thursday. If she fails it again she is out. She cannot take it again,
and will never be allowed to get her AA Degree.
Can she transfer her credits to another school that does not have
this kind of exam?
This seems to me to be very unfair and indeed illegal.
Unfair perhaps. Illegal, no, not imo, though you should ask a
lawyer about it. I dislike suits over things of this nature, but if
you find that the law agrees with you about this being illegal
(because it was made a requirement after she entered - not
because she didn't know about it - ignorance of something like
this is no excuse)
She has been a student at La Guardia Community for three
years since February 2001.
ok
If she had known about this new test, she could have gone to
another school and would not have wasted her time trying to
get a degree she will never be able to get.
When did the test become a requirement? Is it a requirement
for all community colleges in the state?
Her major is accounting. It seems to me that it is unfair and
inappropriate to require majors in math, computer science,
accounting and similar subjects to have to pass a test of
very high English writing ability.
According to our college profs (and I agree with them) every
college student should be able to write on the college level.
Now what constitutes the college level or what makes a good
test of such writing may be different than what you or I think
should be required.
--
Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
|
| |
| |
On 11 Jan 2004 16:52:37 -0800, Paul Rubin
<http://phr.cx@NOSPAM.invalid> wrote:
sloan@ishipress.com (Sam Sloan) writes:
That test doesn't look harder than what everyone at my school had to
do in order to graduate. However, that was a 4-year school with
supposedly somewhat harder academics than most of the state school
system. I don't know how an AA program at a junior college would
compare. Also, as mentioned, at my school you could get out of taking
those tests by taking and passing some extra classes instead, though
those involved even larger amounts of essay writing.
Nor mine, but again, I went to 4 year colleges and eventually to grad
school. AA programs are on a bit lower level. Still, the competency
doesn't seem higher than what would have been required of Freshman
in college when I went to school in the early 60s.
I see in the test blurb that students receive the reading selection
two weeks before the exam. That should give them plenty of time to
discuss the selection with their instructor and catch up on mysterious
words like "unipolar". So I don't think the test is unreasonably
hard.
However, I agree with you that when a school adds new graduation
requirements for its students, those requirements shouldn't apply to
students who are already enrolled at the time.
Yes, this is one key. But there is no legal precedent that says it
*must* be so, as far as I know. Most schools do it because it
seems fair.
--
Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
|
| |
| |
sloan@ishipress.com (Sam Sloan) writes:
Perhaps you did not understand or I did not explain it clearly. The
class assignments WRITTEN BY THE TEACHERS contained numerous spelling
mistakes and grammatical errors. It was obvous that the ENGLISH
TEACHERS were not good writers, could not spell, Etc.
One can make spelling and grammatical errors and still be a good writer.
However, yes, English teachers shouldn't make mistakes like that.
Of course, they were teaching at La Guardia Community College. What do
you expect? This is not exactly Harvard University.
I am very familiar with Subject A because I went to the University of
California at Berkeley which also had Subject A. I did not have to
take it because I scored 673 on my verbal SAT Test and so was exempt.
You went there much earlier than I did. It sounds like they changed
the requirement later. I scored over 700 on the verbal SAT and still
had to take the Subject A test. Maybe the test got harder too: I
don't know. I remember thinking that the Subject A test was
unreasonably hard (I think I got a C on it) but all I really cared
about was that I passed, so I didn't let it bother me too much.
Looking back though, I'd say I was poorly prepared for that test
at the time, and that's why I did badly.
However, my roommate John Canney who was from Salinas, California had
to take Subject A. He failed Subject A and flunked out of college.
Your implication that John Canney flunked out of college by failing
Subject A is bogus. You can't flunk out of college by failing one
class. You just have to take it again. He had to fail other classes
too in order to actually get thrown out. If he was the kind of guy to
fail multiple classes, that might explain why he never passed Subject A.
Anyway, UC Berkeley has tons of foreign students whose English is
awful, and they not only pass Subject A but also the much more
difficult reading and composition classes. Yes, they make spelling
and grammatical mistakes. But they pass anyway.
From what I have seen, the CPE Exam is considerably more difficult
than Subject A.
By the way, I still remember the subject of Subject A. It was an essay
question on whether the US was justified in dropping the A-Bomb on
Hiroshima. To pass the test, you had to write the bomb should not have
been dropped. I kept getting into fights are arguments with my
roommate John Canney over this, especially when I brought up the fact
that my uncle had dropped the A-Bomb on Nagasaki.
I don't believe that and I think you are full of it. Subject A, and
the first semester of reading and composition class, totally revolve
around reading selections by various authors and discerning what the
author is trying to say. That is, if the author argues for or against
dropping the bomb, then the test will be about identifying and
analyzing the author's arguments. They pound the hell out of you on
that. They are trying to teach you how to do close and critical
reading. They want to see how well you can understand and explain
what the author thinks about dropping the bomb. They don't care, and
they don't ask, what YOU think about dropping the bomb.
|
| |
| |
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 01:41:00 GMT, sloan@ishipress.com (Sam Sloan)
wrote:
Since she has taken all these English courses, I have seen the
assignments given by her teachers. Her class assignments have been
poorly written, filled with spelling mistakes and grammatical errors.
Her English teachers are obviously poor writers. One short story she
was given as an assignment was only one sentence long. That one
sentence was ten pages long, and a poor translation from Spanish. That
was cute, but hardly a good example by which to teach English. I feel
certain that none of her English teachers can pass the test she is now
being required to pass.
Sam Sloan
This sounds like a real problem.
If her English teachers are not native speakers and cannot write
properly I doubt if their students can do well. OTOH, if you did
see this, why didn't you talk to her about transferring out of this
poorly done program before now?
--
Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
|
| |
| |
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 00:57:33 GMT, "Phil Innes" <aonghuis@sover.net>
wrote:
I am personally appalled that these ugly latinized
English words now constitute a hurdle to citizenship.
They don't constitute a hurdle to citizenship. They constitute
a hurdle to her because her community college is apparently
using a selection that is pretty confusing to her and probably
to many students nowadays.
OTOH, the complaint is that the schools have been dumbed
down and one of the reasons for this is that we don't teach
our students vocabulary. When I went to school, many of
us studied Latin and Greek or at least the roots of the words
so words like unipolar and unilateralist were certainly not a
problem for us.
I do think obscure words are a problem, but the ones that
have latin roots are not that difficult to figure out.
--
Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
|
| |
| |
In article <4001d6d4.26117937@ca.news.verio.net>,
Sam Sloan <sloan@ishipress.com> wrote:
CPE Exam Quagmire
My wife is Japanese. She is a student at La Guardia Community College.
She has completed almost all her required course work to get her AA
degree in February.
However, there is a new requirement. In order to get her degree, she
must also pass a CPE Exam. This is a very hard exam of English writing
ability. Most Americans could not pass it and it will be almost
impossible for a foreigner to pass.
It doesn't look too difficult to me.
Please take a look at
http://www.lagcc.cuny.edu/wid/cpe.htm
<snip>
They have given her an essay to read. Half of the test on Thursday
will be on that Essay. The title of the essay is: "The Paradox of
American Power" by Joseph S. Nye. It is a chapter from a book by the
same name. It is very high level reading by a former Under-Secretary
of State. It even uses words which are not in the dictionary. Again, I
doubt that I could pass this test myself.
Here is a sentence from the first page of the essay upon which this
test will be based:
"The new unilateralist [when a nation acts on its own without
consulting other nations or even allies] recognizes the uniqueness of
the unipolar world we now inhabit."
However, the word "unipolar" does not exist.
http://www.dictionary.com
unipolar - adj. Having a single pole.
The phrase "the
uniqueness of the unipolar world we now inhabit" is nonsense. In
addition, the word "unilateralist" does not exits.
unilateralism
n.
A tendency of nations to conduct their foreign affairs individualistically,
characterized by minimal consultation and involvement with other nations,
even their allies.
So, this one
sentence contains two words which are not recognized by any
dictionary.
Methinks you need to get a better dictionary.
--
"That would be hilarious if Bush won the popular vote but lost the
Electoral College.
"That would be fuunnnnnnnnnnay!"
Tim "Skidmark" Brown
bandit@iglou.com
"[I]f Mullin does not lose his account, I shall go
on a hunger strike to force more decisive action.
Tim "Skidmark" Brown
bandit@iglou.com
Boycott France. Boycott China.
|
| |
| |
On 11 Jan 2004 19:17:29 -0800, Paul Rubin
<http://phr.cx@NOSPAM.invalid> wrote:
I am very familiar with Subject A because I went to the University of
California at Berkeley which also had Subject A. I did not have to
take it because I scored 673 on my verbal SAT Test and so was exempt.
You went there much earlier than I did. It sounds like they changed
the requirement later. I scored over 700 on the verbal SAT and still
had to take the Subject A test. Maybe the test got harder too:
At some point they weakened the SAT test. I do not know when or by how
much. I do not know how my 673 compares your over-700 score. I do know
that I took the SAT test in 1962 and this score was number two in my
high school graduating class. A girl named Martha Sue Hurley was the
only person in my high school class who scored more than 673 on the
verbal SAT. She also won the Virginia State Spelling Bee Championship
two years running. She later died in a fire.
Sam Sloan
|
| |
| |
sloan@ishipress.com (Sam Sloan) wrote in message news:<4001d6d4.26117937@ca.news.verio.net>...
My wife has a classmate who is a native born American and an English
major who writes critiques of Shakespeare, and he just got his result
back. He failed the CPE Exam and is protesting loudly.
Well, he failed. Of course he'll protest. And he may write critiques
of the Bard, but that doesn't necessarily make them any good, or him
smart.
This seems to me to be very unfair and indeed illegal. She has been a
student at La Guardia Community for three years since February 2001.
If she had known about this new test, she could have gone to another
school and would not have wasted her time trying to get a degree she
will never be able to get.
How new is the requirement? The webpages you cited seem to have been
written in the fall of 2001 or spring of 2002, and elsewhere on the
site it suggests the program the CPE is part of started in 1998.
Doesn't sound so new. Perhaps your wife didn't fully understand the
graduation requirements when she enrolled, which would be sad, but not
illegal.
Her major is accounting. It seems to me that it is unfair and
inappropriate to require majors in math, computer science, accounting
and similar subjects to have to pass a test of very high English
writing ability.
I'll grant you that it seems like an unusual requirement for a math or
accounting major. I wouldn't expect either type of student to need to
show expertise at dealing with social science academic writing. But
then, the school is free to set whatever graduation requirements they
want. If you attend anyway, that's your risk. I find it hard to
believe that CUNY instituted the requirement after your wife enrolled,
and then after the fact required her to pass to obtain her degree.
But if they did, well, that sure sounds like it could potentially be a
problematic contract, depending on how it was done.
Here is a sentence from the first page of the essay upon which this
test will be based:
"The new unilateralist [when a nation acts on its own without
consulting other nations or even allies] recognizes the uniqueness of
the unipolar world we now inhabit."
However, the word "unipolar" does not exist. The phrase "the
uniqueness of the unipolar world we now inhabit" is nonsense. In
It is hardly nonsense. The fact that you can't decode it means only
that you don't understand it. And I find it hard to believe that you
don't understand what this means. You're reasonably intelligent. I
don't understand organic chemistry, and I'm sure the dictionaries I
have easy access to don't contain o-chem jargon, but I wouldn't call
the jargon nonsense.
addition, the word "unilateralist" does not exits. So, this one
sentence contains two words which are not recognized by any
dictionary.
Plopping "unipolar" into yahoo yields 3 results in the first 20 that
are in a geopolitical context, including one that claims that the
word unipolar is in the Collins English Dictionary
http://www.wordreference.com/english/definition.asp?en=unipolar.
So it is in at least one dictionary, though not in the geopolitical
context. Also, the quoted text itself defines unilateralist. So
where's the problem there? Even if it didn't do this, the word
"unilateralist" is obviously the word unilateral with the often used
suffix "-ist". It strikes me that asking students to infer meanings
of unfamiliar or new words isn't unfair, particularly when they
contain familiar prefixes ("uni-") or suffixes ("-ist"). Particularly
since the school allows students to work together to understand the
readings.
Mark
|
| |
| |
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 23:18:41 -0600, Sam Sloan wrote
(in message <40022c51.48003484@ca.news.verio.net>):
At some point they weakened the SAT test. I do not know when or by how
much. I do not know how my 673 compares your over-700 score. I do know
that I took the SAT test in 1962 and this score was number two in my
high school graduating class.
MENSA has some relatively good comparisons on "before and after" scores. I've
never paid attention (the test I used wasn't SAT) but it's probably either
MENSA.ORG or .COM.
[I belonged in 1982 but - for a variety of reasons - didn't renew).
I was a '64 grad from high school but "my hero" as well as some of the women
(called "girls" back then, of course) I dated were Class of '62.
Alex made 796 on math and 800 on verbal.
I never took SAT but, for years, I thought my ACT of 32 was mediocre because
so many of the people in my high school (including most of the "girls"/women
I dated) scored higher.
My apologies for the digression but - as I stated above - Mensa has several
categories of "old & new" test scores if they still do that stuff.
Gray Shockley
--------------------------------------------------------
When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one
individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take
command. Very often, that individual is crazy. -Author Unk
|
| |
| |
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 05:18:41 GMT, sloan@ishipress.com (Sam Sloan)
wrote:
On 11 Jan 2004 19:17:29 -0800, Paul Rubin
<http://phr.cx@NOSPAM.invalid> wrote:
I am very familiar with Subject A because I went to the University of
California at Berkeley which also had Subject A. I did not have to
take it because I scored 673 on my verbal SAT Test and so was exempt.
At some point they weakened the SAT test.
That's a myth. They did change the scoring. The test itself was
not *weakened.*
Overall, the average SAT scores in 1992 were about 5% lower
than in 1960. However:
About half the decline between 1960 and 1990 reflects changes
in who is taking the test-and who isn't. The test is now taken by
proportionately fewer students from the top 20% of their
graduating class and proportionately more students from the
lower 60%. Furthermore, the test is now taken by groups that
have traditionally scored lower: minority students, students of
lower socioeconomic status, and students for whom English
is not their native language. The 1995 SAT scores were higher
than they have been in years, but the significance of this is
uncertain because of a change in scoring procedures.
The SAT test today is more difficult than it was in 1975,
according to the Educational Testing Service, which develops
the test items (Berliner, 1992, citing the 1991 draft of the
Sandia report).
http://www.cozine.com/archive/cc1997/00430109.htm
Perhaps the myth of declining American student achievement
stems from the ups and downs of the SAT college admissions
test. Until quite recently, the SAT had negligently not been
renormed since 1941! The point of reference and "average"
referred to for decades was a small group of about 10,000 test
takers, before World War II, mostly white, wealthy, males,
mostly from Northeastern states, applying to the most
prestigious colleges in the country. The average score for this
group was 500. Over the years the average SAT score has
changed from 500 to 424 for verbal and 478 for math.
In April, 1995, the College Board "recentered" the average
based on the high school senior class of 1990, the most
recent group on which the College Board had complete
information when preparation began several years ago.
From 1950 to 1980, the college-bound population grew from
10 percent to near 50 percent of all high school graduates,
as more students aspired to college. The SAT score "decline"
does not reflect a decline in ability but rather, a dramatic
increase in the total percentage of the population taking the
test. Only 10,000 took it in 1941, compared to more than 2
million now.
There are many problems with the SAT test. Students answer
138 multiple choice questions (78 verbal, 60 math). The
number of right answers is converted, by a process only a
statistician could love, to a scale score from 200 to 800 points.
A student who answered 77 of the 78 verbal questions correctly,
would receive a 750, 50 full points below the perfect 800. In 1963,
a modest decline of about 5% began, then stopped in the mid-
1970s.
The SAT was designed to predict success or failure for college
freshmen. It is a voluntary test. In years when more students
take the test, the average declines. In years when fewer
students take the test, the average rises. There is an incredibly
strong positive correlation between family income and SAT
scores. The average SAT score earned by students goes down
by fifteen points for each decrease of $10,000 in family income.
The SAT's competitor, the American College Test, revises topics
and questions each year to correlate with the evolving curricula
at American colleges and universities. In my opinion, it is a
better test.
That is, it's better than the SAT at predicting how one student
might do in college. It doesn't tell you much about a high school,
and when you aggregate it with a bunch of other test scores, it
tells you even less.
I do not know when or by how
much. I do not know how my 673 compares your over-700 score. I do know
that I took the SAT test in 1962 and this score was number two in my
high school graduating class. A girl named Martha Sue Hurley was the
only person in my high school class who scored more than 673 on the
verbal SAT. She also won the Virginia State Spelling Bee Championship
two years running. She later died in a fire.
Sam Sloan
--
Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
|
| |
| |
toto <scarecrow@wicked.witch> writes:
The SAT's competitor, the American College Test, revises topics
and questions each year to correlate with the evolving curricula
at American colleges and universities. In my opinion, it is a
better test.
I took both the SAT and the ACT (I went to a midwestern college before
UC). The ACT may be revised more often, but for that reason I think
they don't test the questions as well. The math section had a
question where the test writer overlooked something sneaky, so in a
strict sense NONE of the multiple-choice answers for that question was
really correct, though it was easy to tell which one they thought was
right. (I was a precocious math geek and I checked their error
several times and am certain of it). I don't think that could have
happened on the SAT. The other sections were also done somewhat
sloppily, though I didn't spot any outright errors like on that one
math question. I know that the SAT is very carefully engineered. By
comparison the ACT just seemed kind of thrown together.
I'm not sure what the ACT really measured either. I did very well on
the math and science parts and pretty well on the English part, all of
which I expected. But I also got a good score on the history part, a
subject that I was terrible at (I'm not being modest, I really mean
that), and there's no way I could have gotten a good score on a test
that actually measured history knowledge. It was just possible on
that test to guess almost all of the answers from the questions. So
I'd describe the history test as being mostly a reading comprehension
test and therefore just an extension of the English test.
|
| |
| |
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 0:20:43 -0600, Gray Shockley
<gray-87a@cybercoffee.org> wrote:
Alex made 796 on math and 800 on verbal.
I never met anyone who scored 800 on verbal and therefore I must
question such claims.
Sam Sloan
|
| |
| |
| | |
