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http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/2004-02-18-colorado-investigation_x.htm
DENVER — The University of Colorado said it planned to hire a
special administrator to oversee its athletic department and
scandal-plagued football program after a female placekicker said she
was raped by a teammate four years ago.
Katie Hnida said in the upcoming edition of Sports Illustrated that
she was assaulted in the summer of 2000. Now at the University of New
Mexico, she last year became the first woman ever to score points in a
Division I-A college football game.
Three other women have sued the University of Colorado in federal
court, saying they were raped by players or recruits at or after an
off-campus party in December 2001.
No assault charges have been filed in those cases, but Boulder County
prosecutor Mary Keenan said in a deposition for one of the lawsuits
that she believes the football program uses alcohol and sex to entice
recruits. Keenan did not return a call seeking comment Tuesday.
Meanwhile, The Denver Post reported Wednesday that a fifth woman told
police more than a year ago that she was raped by a football player.
That woman did not want to press charges.
"If and when she decides to come forward, I will support her in doing
so, but I respect people's privacy," Keenan told the newspaper.
Hnida, 22, issued a statement Tuesday through the University of New
Mexico, saying she was "healing" from "horrors endured" at Colorado.
The statement does not mention rape, and she says she does not plan to
press charges.
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s_knight8 wrote:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/2004-02-18-colorado-investigation_x.htm
DENVER — The University of Colorado said it planned to hire a
special administrator to oversee its athletic department and
scandal-plagued football program after a female placekicker said she
was raped by a teammate four years ago.
Katie Hnida said in the upcoming edition of Sports Illustrated that
she was assaulted in the summer of 2000. Now at the University of New
Mexico, she last year became the first woman ever to score points in a
Division I-A college football game.
Three other women have sued the University of Colorado in federal
court, saying they were raped by players or recruits at or after an
off-campus party in December 2001.
No assault charges have been filed in those cases, but Boulder County
prosecutor Mary Keenan said in a deposition for one of the lawsuits
that she believes the football program uses alcohol and sex to entice
recruits. Keenan did not return a call seeking comment Tuesday.
Meanwhile, The Denver Post reported Wednesday that a fifth woman told
police more than a year ago that she was raped by a football player.
That woman did not want to press charges.
"If and when she decides to come forward, I will support her in doing
so, but I respect people's privacy," Keenan told the newspaper.
Hnida, 22, issued a statement Tuesday through the University of New
Mexico, saying she was "healing" from "horrors endured" at Colorado.
The statement does not mention rape, and she says she does not plan to
press charges.
ROFLMAO!!! If Colorado takes its football as seriously as other
states, the legislature is likely to roll back their "rape shield" hate
laws to protect the team.
Bob
--
When did we divide into sides?
"As president, I will put American government and our legal system back
on the side of women." John Kerry, leading Democratic candidate for
President. http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/women/
[Bob does not advocate any illegal, seditious, or immoral acts. All
posts are for discussion, rhetorical, or humorous purposes only.]
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On 18 Feb 2004 08:21:48 -0800, s_knight8@hotmail.com (s_knight8)
wrote:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/2004-02-18-colorado-investigation_x.htm
DENVER — The University of Colorado said it planned to hire a
special administrator to oversee its athletic department and
scandal-plagued football program after a female placekicker said she
was raped by a teammate four years ago.
Katie Hnida said in the upcoming edition of Sports Illustrated that
she was assaulted in the summer of 2000. Now at the University of New
Mexico, she last year became the first woman ever to score points in a
Division I-A college football game.
Three other women have sued the University of Colorado in federal
court, saying they were raped by players or recruits at or after an
off-campus party in December 2001.
No assault charges have been filed in those cases, but Boulder County
prosecutor Mary Keenan said in a deposition for one of the lawsuits
that she believes the football program uses alcohol and sex to entice
recruits. Keenan did not return a call seeking comment Tuesday.
Meanwhile, The Denver Post reported Wednesday that a fifth woman told
police more than a year ago that she was raped by a football player.
That woman did not want to press charges.
"If and when she decides to come forward, I will support her in doing
so, but I respect people's privacy," Keenan told the newspaper.
Hnida, 22, issued a statement Tuesday through the University of New
Mexico, saying she was "healing" from "horrors endured" at Colorado.
The statement does not mention rape, and she says she does not plan to
press charges.
Gee..no charges pressed but many allegations thrown around. A
reasonable person could draw some conclusions from that.
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Sky King wrote:
On 18 Feb 2004 08:21:48 -0800, s_knight8@hotmail.com (s_knight8)
wrote:
Gee..no charges pressed but many allegations thrown around. A
reasonable person could draw some conclusions from that.
Liable and slander come to mind.
Bob
--
When did we divide into sides?
"As president, I will put American government and our legal system back
on the side of women." John Kerry, leading Democratic candidate for
President. http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/women/
[Bob does not advocate any illegal, seditious, or immoral acts. All
posts are for discussion, rhetorical, or humorous purposes only.]
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In article <ov8d301p09e2p3qrem72uc4nrc4bh5a6q6@4ax.com>,
Sky King <gotcha@myplace.com> wrote:
On 18 Feb 2004 08:21:48 -0800, s_knight8@hotmail.com (s_knight8)
wrote:
Gee..no charges pressed but many allegations thrown around. A
reasonable person could draw some conclusions from that.
Actually, a reasonable person (or for that matter, an unreasonable
person) could speculate from that. But a reasonable person draw
conclusions? I'd have to disagree with you there.
But don't be shy, tell us what conclusion *you* draw from that.
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In article <4035547C.9080105@hotmail.com>, Bob <boby23456@hotmail.com> wrote:
Sky King wrote:
Liable and slander come to mind.
Mr. Reasonable weighs in.
rotfl
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In article <4035547C.9080105@hotmail.com>, Bob <boby23456@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Sky King wrote:
Gee..no charges pressed but many allegations thrown around. A
reasonable person could draw some conclusions from that.
Liable and slander come to mind.
Mr. Reasonable weighs in.
rotfl
Actually, that would be sixth rape accusation, as of today.
td
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tjab wrote:
In article <ov8d301p09e2p3qrem72uc4nrc4bh5a6q6@4ax.com>,
Sky King <gotcha@myplace.com> wrote:
Actually, a reasonable person (or for that matter, an unreasonable
person) could speculate from that. But a reasonable person draw
conclusions? I'd have to disagree with you there.
But don't be shy, tell us what conclusion *you* draw from that.
If CU was using booze and bimbos to lure recruits, and they were the
only ones, then why in the hell does their recruiting class always end
up in the low forties? I mean, with the kind of hot female talent in
Boulder, you'd expect a Top Five class every year! ;-)
I mean, it's NOT like those kids would have to live in Ann Arbor or
Lincoln. :)
Ergo, it obviously ain't true. Q.E.D. :-P
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Ken Smith <forget@it.com> wrote in message news:<4035836C.8020902@it.com>...
tjab wrote:
If CU was using booze and bimbos to lure recruits, and they were the
only ones, then why in the hell does their recruiting class always end
up in the low forties? I mean, with the kind of hot female talent in
Boulder, you'd expect a Top Five class every year! ;-)
I mean, it's NOT like those kids would have to live in Ann Arbor or
Lincoln. :)
Ergo, it obviously ain't true. Q.E.D. :-P
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"tinydancer" <tinydancer@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<8ceZb.36456$kR3.3270@bignews4.bellsouth.net>...
wrote:
Sky King wrote:
Gee..no charges pressed but many allegations thrown around. A
reasonable person could draw some conclusions from that.
Liable and slander come to mind.
Actually, that would be sixth rape accusation, as of today.
td
And no charges or convictions as of TODAY. Hmmmmm. Folks can make
all kinds of accusations...lets see if they can prove them.
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"tinydancer" <tinydancer@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:<8ceZb.36456$kR3.3270@bignews4.bellsouth.net>...
In article <4035547C.9080105@hotmail.com>, Bob
<boby23456@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Sky King wrote:
Gee..no charges pressed but many allegations thrown around. A
reasonable person could draw some conclusions from that.
Liable and slander come to mind.
Mr. Reasonable weighs in.
rotfl
Actually, that would be sixth rape accusation, as of today.
td
And no charges or convictions as of TODAY. Hmmmmm. Folks can make
all kinds of accusations...lets see if they can prove them.
Except in one or two of them, there IS DNA evidence that was taken at the
time. And there were police reports. The fact that the woman chose to not
go forward at the time should tell you something. A woman doesn't go for a
rape kit for fun. They are invasive, humiliating, and not something one
'enjoys' doing.
td
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In article <16232246.0402200649.308fee6c@posting.google.com>,
Sky King <rebeo727@adelphia.net> wrote:
"tinydancer" <tinydancer@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<8ceZb.36456$kR3.3270@bignews4.bellsouth.net>...
And no charges or convictions as of TODAY. Hmmmmm. Folks can make
all kinds of accusations...lets see if they can prove them.
People can make all kinds of TRUE accusations and still not be able
to prove them beyond a reasonable doubt. Do you see anyone suing the
accusers for libel or slander? Do you wonder why not?
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A woman doesn't go for a rape kit for fun. They are invasive,
humiliating, and not something one
'enjoys' doing.
td
This statement reminds me of another one, "a woman wouldn't lie about being
rape".
Greg
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"greg brown" <noway@way.com> wrote in
news:WVuZb.1568$yZ1.1047@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net:
humiliating, and not something one
This statement reminds me of another one, "a woman wouldn't lie about
being rape".
Greg
I wonder if Kobe was hanging with the UCO football team.
--
Don't Get Eliminated!!
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In article <WVuZb.1568$yZ1.1047@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
greg brown <noway@way.com> wrote:
humiliating, and not something one
This statement reminds me of another one, "a woman wouldn't lie about being
rape".
Greg
You mean you think a woman *would* do a rape kit for fun?
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tjab@wam.umd.edu (tjab) wrote in message news:<c15ikf$3fs@rac2.wam.umd.edu>...
[...]
And no charges or convictions as of TODAY. Hmmmmm. Folks can make
all kinds of accusations...lets see if they can prove them.
People can make all kinds of TRUE accusations and still not be able
to prove them beyond a reasonable doubt. Do you see anyone suing the
accusers for libel or slander? Do you wonder why not?
Oddly enough, when it's a man saying that he's innocent, you and other
women never say things like this.
Let me ask you this tjab, is your default asusmption guilt for the
accused? That would explain your comment.
Nontheless, this illustrates just how polarized the issue is, there
are many who refuse to disbelieve any rape accusation, and no
recantation or aliby will suffice. Rather than requiring that guilt be
proven, they demand that innocence be proven, and it's pretty much
impossible by their standards.
That's one thing I say that gets lots of women upset, that all we have
most times are an accuser and an accused. And we have no knowledge
with which to access which, if either, is lying. The default
assumption BTW, is that the woman is telling the truth, and as a
consequence, that the accused is guilty. Do you think this is how
jutice is forged?
Rich
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In article <WVuZb.1568$yZ1.1047@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
greg brown <noway@way.com> wrote:
You mean you think a woman *would* do a rape kit for fun?
Especially since at the time it was done, she didn't press charges. She
only came forward a couple years later, *after* all these other allegations
began surfacing.
td
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In article <3a256c50.0402201556.516a1d29@posting.google.com>,
Rich <rpayne@mybluelight.com> wrote:
tjab@wam.umd.edu (tjab) wrote in message news:<c15ikf$3fs@rac2.wam.umd.edu>...
[...]
And no charges or convictions as of TODAY. Hmmmmm. Folks can make
all kinds of accusations...lets see if they can prove them.
Oddly enough, when it's a man saying that he's innocent, you and other
women never say things like this.
Let me ask you this tjab, is your default asusmption guilt for the
accused? That would explain your comment.
No, and to say that would "explain" my comment shows a poor grasp of
logic on your part. Do you deny that a person could make a true
accusation and still not be able to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt?
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On 20 Feb 2004 19:24:38 -0500, tjab@wam.umd.edu (tjab) wrote:
In article <3a256c50.0402201556.516a1d29@posting.google.com>,
Rich <rpayne@mybluelight.com> wrote:
No, and to say that would "explain" my comment shows a poor grasp of
logic on your part. Do you deny that a person could make a true
accusation and still not be able to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt?
Um . . . I believe in the absence of proof beyond a reasonable doubt
that the default presumption of 'innocent' still applies. Any genuine
rape victim who cannot prove her charge has my sympathy, but that's
all. We simply cannot (well, should not, obviously we can and it
happens too often) convict a person of rape with nothing more than a
woman's say-so. I am sure that is a large part of what the previous
poster was trying to get you to see.
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In article <a2ad301br3ufkh3nes8pvhijkdcrl12cmk@4ax.com>,
<Sillyman@famous.com> wrote:
On 20 Feb 2004 19:24:38 -0500, tjab@wam.umd.edu (tjab) wrote:
Um . . . I believe in the absence of proof beyond a reasonable doubt
that the default presumption of 'innocent' still applies. Any genuine
rape victim who cannot prove her charge has my sympathy, but that's
all. We simply cannot (well, should not, obviously we can and it
happens too often) convict a person of rape with nothing more than a
woman's say-so. I am sure that is a large part of what the previous
poster was trying to get you to see.
Any evidence for your claim that we often convict men of rape on
nothing more than a woman's say-so?
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On 20 Feb 2004 19:46:55 -0500, tjab@wam.umd.edu (tjab) wrote:
Any evidence for your claim that we often convict men of rape on
nothing more than a woman's say-so?
Well, if you want chapter and verse, I don't have it handy. If you are
so inclined though, do a quick search on the 'net for 'man cleared by
DNA evidence', or some such. There will be no shortage of examples for
you. And I don't believe it is splitting hairs on my part to point out
that I didn't say 'often', I said 'too often'. As in, 'if it only
happens once it's still too often'.
Oh, and it has happened more than once.
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On 20 Feb 2004 19:46:55 -0500, tjab@wam.umd.edu (tjab) wrote:
Any evidence for your claim that we often convict men of rape on
nothing more than a woman's say-so?
It took me about 4 minutes to make this list. You're welcome.
http://www.aidwyc.org/pdfs2/washingtonpost_jun6-2002.pdf
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2003/02/12/national2043EST0862.DTL
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2003/06/12/loc_kydnaevidence12.html
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2001/10/19/loc_court_grants.html
http://texnews.com/texas97/pardon100997.html
http://www.pcusa.org/pcnews/oldnews/2000/00308.htm
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In article <u2bd30plfp46trondotguvd3himrr6o0kk@4ax.com>,
<Sillyman@famous.com> wrote:
On 20 Feb 2004 19:46:55 -0500, tjab@wam.umd.edu (tjab) wrote:
Well, if you want chapter and verse, I don't have it handy. If you are
so inclined though, do a quick search on the 'net for 'man cleared by
DNA evidence', or some such. There will be no shortage of examples for
you. And I don't believe it is splitting hairs on my part to point out
that I didn't say 'often', I said 'too often'. As in, 'if it only
happens once it's still too often'.
I agree.
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In article <qecd30h9hhgjjdclae4uk1edfpm1l56vfc@4ax.com>,
<Sillyman@famous.com> wrote:
On 20 Feb 2004 19:46:55 -0500, tjab@wam.umd.edu (tjab) wrote:
It took me about 4 minutes to make this list. You're welcome.
http://www.aidwyc.org/pdfs2/washingtonpost_jun6-2002.pdf
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2003/02/12/national2043EST0862.DTL
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2003/06/12/loc_kydnaevidence12.html
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2001/10/19/loc_court_grants.html
http://texnews.com/texas97/pardon100997.html
http://www.pcusa.org/pcnews/oldnews/2000/00308.htm
If you're looking for mistaken convictions, look up the Innocence
Project and you'll find a lot more.
However, whether the only evidence in these cases was "a woman's
say-so" is less than clear from these articles. Indeed, if you look
at the convictions overturned by DNA evidence listed on the Innocence
Project's website, you'll see that in many of these cases, the woman
was killed in the course of the attack. So clearly, even mistaken
convictions are not always based solely on the woman's testimony.
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On 20 Feb 2004 22:48:32 -0500, tjab@wam.umd.edu (tjab) wrote:
If you're looking for mistaken convictions, look up the Innocence
Project and you'll find a lot more.
(snip)
clearly, even mistaken
convictions are not always based solely on the woman's testimony.
No argument from me. But then, I never suggested that they always
were.
I will look up that innocence project. Thanks for the tip.
You're being awfully civil. Are you sure you are posting to the right
group?
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In article <WVuZb.1568$yZ1.1047@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
greg brown <noway@way.com> wrote:
You mean you think a woman *would* do a rape kit for fun?
Your statement implies that a woman would not undergo a rape kit unless she
had really been raped, because I assume, rape kits are not fun. I believe
that a woman might undergo a rape kit under false pretences to support a
false rape allegation.
I think we need to get away from this notion that a woman would not lie
about being raped. Women are human and I think it has been shown that humans
will lie about pretty much anything, including crimes that did not happen.
Greg
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Your statement implies that a woman would not undergo a rape kit unless
she
had really been raped, because I assume, rape kits are not fun. I believe
that a woman might undergo a rape kit under false pretences to support a
false rape allegation.
Except no allegation was made at the time. This happened a couple years
ago. And no, I don't think a woman would go to the hospital, have a rape
kit done, just for nothing.
I think we need to get away from this notion that a woman would not lie
about being raped. Women are human and I think it has been shown that
humans
will lie about pretty much anything, including crimes that did not happen.
Greg
I never said some women might not lie. But if a woman was having a rape kit
done for the purpose of lying, don't you think she'd have followed through
and brought charges?
td
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On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 00:30:51 -0500, "tinydancer"
<tinydancer@nospam.com> wrote:
she
Except no allegation was made at the time. This happened a couple years
ago. And no, I don't think a woman would go to the hospital, have a rape
kit done, just for nothing.
humans
I never said some women might not lie. But if a woman was having a rape kit
done for the purpose of lying, don't you think she'd have followed through
and brought charges?
So why did she have it done? Why did she go through the rape kit
thing and do nothing more?
Ann
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Ann <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:<itce30d14aukrbes5qslltqg9sdjp003mu@4ax.com>...
On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 00:30:51 -0500, "tinydancer"
<tinydancer@nospam.com> wrote:
So why did she have it done? Why did she go through the rape kit
thing and do nothing more?
Ann
Who knows for sure? There could be many reasons.
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tjab@wam.umd.edu (tjab) wrote in message news:<c15ikf$3fs@rac2.wam.umd.edu>...
In article <16232246.0402200649.308fee6c@posting.google.com>,
Sky King <rebeo727@adelphia.net> wrote:
People can make all kinds of TRUE accusations and still not be able
to prove them beyond a reasonable doubt. Do you see anyone suing the
accusers for libel or slander? Do you wonder why not?
Rarely do unjustly accused people sue for slander. If they can't prove
the accusations then they remain just that...accusations with no PROOF.
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Ann <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:<itce30d14aukrbes5qslltqg9sdjp003mu@4ax.com>...
On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 00:30:51 -0500, "tinydancer"
<tinydancer@nospam.com> wrote:
In article <WVuZb.1568$yZ1.1047@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
greg brown <noway@way.com> wrote:
A woman doesn't go for a rape kit for fun. They are invasive,
humiliating, and not something one
'enjoys' doing.
td
This statement reminds me of another one, "a woman wouldn't lie
about
being
rape".
Greg
You mean you think a woman *would* do a rape kit for fun?
Who said they did it for fun. Many men are falsely accused of rape and
these
women probably had a rape kit done. Having that done does not mean she
was
raped.
Your statement implies that a woman would not undergo a rape kit
unless
she
had really been raped, because I assume, rape kits are not fun. I
believe
that a woman might undergo a rape kit under false pretences to
support a
false rape allegation.
Except no allegation was made at the time. This happened a couple
years
ago. And no, I don't think a woman would go to the hospital, have a
rape
kit done, just for nothing.
Who said it was for nothing?
I think we need to get away from this notion that a woman would not
lie
about being raped. Women are human and I think it has been shown that
humans
will lie about pretty much anything, including crimes that did not
happen.
Greg
I never said some women might not lie. But if a woman was having a
rape kit
done for the purpose of lying, don't you think she'd have followed
through
and brought charges?
Not if she thought she did not have enough evidence or if she was lying.
Who knows for sure? There could be many reasons.
Many women go into the hospital after having been raped, to be checked over,
tested for STD's, receive treatment. From the stories I've been reading on
this topic, it reads like this is the woman who was sodomized by two of the
players and was bleeding.
td
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In article <16232246.0402210726.2b72ba30@posting.google.com>,
Sky King <rebeo727@adelphia.net> wrote:
tjab@wam.umd.edu (tjab) wrote in message news:<c15ikf$3fs@rac2.wam.umd.edu>...
Rarely do unjustly accused people sue for slander.
Don't you mean people who *claim* that they were unjustly accused?
If I had proof that I was falsely accused, I'd sue. Wouldn't you?
If they can't prove
the accusations then they remain just that...accusations with no PROOF.
You mean if they can't prove their accusation that they were falsely
accused? I agree.
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Except no allegation was made at the time. This happened a couple years
ago. And no, I don't think a woman would go to the hospital, have a rape
kit done, just for nothing.
I didn't say an allegation was made by the woman in Colorado. My response
was not directed at any of the facts of the Univ of Colorado case. My
comment was strictly about your statement regarding a woman's willingness to
undergo a rape kit being some type of proof that a rape occurred.
I never said some women might not lie. But if a woman was having a rape
kit
done for the purpose of lying, don't you think she'd have followed through
and brought charges?
No, not necessarily.
This is an example of what I'm talking about. Just because there is no
follow through by a woman after undergoing a rape kit, it does not
necessarily follow that a rape definetly occurred. Your prejudice is showing
here, and I don't mind prejudice, we all have them. But I think it would be
less dishonest if you admitted it. You seem to be blind to the fact that a
rape allegation, or a woman's undergoing a rape kit, is still not evidence
that a rape happened.
Anyone who thinks the way you do should NOT sit on any jury, IMHO,
especially if the case involves a woman alleging she was raped.
Greg
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In article <EoVZb.4284$aT1.3344@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
greg brown <noway@way.com> wrote:
You seem to be blind to the fact that a rape allegation, or a woman's
undergoing a rape kit, is still not evidence that a rape happened.
Proof, no. Evidence? Of course it is.
Anyone who thinks the way you do should NOT sit on any jury, IMHO
Look who's talking.
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tjab@wam.umd.edu (tjab) wrote in message news:<c1894h$4i4@rac1.wam.umd.edu>...
In article <16232246.0402210726.2b72ba30@posting.google.com>,
Sky King <rebeo727@adelphia.net> wrote:
Don't you mean people who *claim* that they were unjustly accused?
OK
If I had proof that I was falsely accused, I'd sue. Wouldn't you?
One..it would be hard to prove and two..no I would not always sue.
The person they would be suing may not have ANY money.
You mean if they can't prove their accusation that they were falsely
accused? I agree.
LOL. They don't have to prove anything. They are innocent until proven guilty.
Its the alleged victim that bears the burden. IF the alleged victim does not
file charges the men have nothing to disprove.
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