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http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/US/Kobe_Bryant_Portland_040220-1.html
Feb. 20 — Tara Vilhauer, a young Portland, Ore., hotel employee,
says she struck up a friendly rapport with returning guest Kobe Bryant
over the last few years, but she says their pleasant hotel room chats
stopped when things got a little too close for comfort.
Vilhauer said the basketball star, who is now facing sexual assault
charges, asked her to come to his room to remove his food tray when he
was a guest there in October 2002. The 24-year-old room service
attendant says she and Byrant talked about his family before he leaned
in and kissed her.
"I engaged in the kiss and I then I had about a million and a half
things go through my mind," Vilhauer said on ABCNEWS' Good Morning
America. "I said 'this can't happen.' I said 'I have a boyfriend. You
have a wife. This is not going to happen.' He [Bryant] said 'that's
cool,' and I left after that."
Kiss Story Gets Out
Vilhauer, 24, says she put the Bryant incident behind her until
prosecutors from the Eagle County Colorado District Attorney's Office
somehow found out about her story after a 19-year-old hotel employee
from Eagle, Colo., accused Bryant of rape in June 2003.
Vilhauer says prosecutors in the Bryant case showed up at the posh
Portland hotel where she works late last year, wanting to hear her
story. When she refused to provide them with details, Vilhauer says
the prosecutors didn't leave her alone.
Vilhauer said they stayed in the hotel overnight and happened to get
on the same elevator with her the next morning.
"They said 'we really want to talk you. We want to maybe get together
with you after work,'" Vilhauer said.
The young room service attendant said she told them she had nothing to
say.
"What happened between him [Bryant] and I, happened between him and
I," she said.
When Good Morning America contacted the Eagle County Colorado District
Attorney's Office with Vilhauer's claims, the office offered the
following statement. "We tried to speak with Tara Vilhauer twice. She
refused us, and we left. No information was exchanged."
Vilhauer says she felt as if the prosecutors interpreted the alleged
kiss as something different to what it actually was.
"I think they're trying to make this a dirty thing, a scandal, and it
wasn't that," Vilhauer said.
Vilhauer says Byrant was consistently respectful with her and that she
had no comment on his sexual assault case.
"He [Bryant] was always a gentleman towards me, as much as you can be
when you're married and you kiss somebody," Vilhauer said.
Vilhauer says Bryant and his Los Angeles Lakers teammates stayed at
her hotel about twice a year. She says Bryant began requesting that
she serve him after the first few times they met. Vilhauer says such
requests are not unusual with regular guests.
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s_knight8 wrote:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/US/Kobe_Bryant_Portland_040220-1.html
Feb. 20 — Tara Vilhauer, a young Portland, Ore., hotel employee,
says she struck up a friendly rapport with returning guest Kobe Bryant
over the last few years, but she says their pleasant hotel room chats
stopped when things got a little too close for comfort.
What does this have to do with the actual case?
Since the woman lives in another state, she can not be compelled to testity.
Yet, the damn prosecutor wants to find dirt in any corner he can and he
can't.
Sounds to me like the investigators wanted the woman to lie.
But why stop there? Why not investigate every female employee of every hotel
where ever Bryant has stayed?
Who knows? They could find a pattern where Bryant is a real womanizer and
shacks up in every hotel.
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s_knight8 wrote:
What does this have to do with the actual case?
Since the woman lives in another state, she can not be compelled to
testity.
This is a criminal case, she can be compelled to testify regardless of where
she lives.
Yet, the damn prosecutor wants to find dirt in any corner he can and he
can't.
Sounds to me like the investigators wanted the woman to lie.
But why stop there? Why not investigate every female employee of every
hotel
where ever Bryant has stayed?
Who knows? They could find a pattern where Bryant is a real womanizer and
shacks up in every hotel.
But that's not a crime.
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s_knight8 <s_knight8@hotmail.com> wrote:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/US/Kobe_Bryant_Portland_040220-1.html
Feb. 20 — Tara Vilhauer, a young Portland, Ore., hotel employee,
says she struck up a friendly rapport with returning guest Kobe Bryant
over the last few years, but she says their pleasant hotel room chats
stopped when things got a little too close for comfort.
Vilhauer said the basketball star, who is now facing sexual assault
charges, asked her to come to his room to remove his food tray when he
was a guest there in October 2002. The 24-year-old room service
attendant says she and Byrant talked about his family before he leaned
in and kissed her.
"I engaged in the kiss and I then I had about a million and a half
things go through my mind," Vilhauer said on ABCNEWS' Good Morning
America. "I said 'this can't happen.' I said 'I have a boyfriend. You
have a wife. This is not going to happen.' He [Bryant] said 'that's
cool,' and I left after that."
Kiss Story Gets Out
Vilhauer, 24, says she put the Bryant incident behind her until
prosecutors from the Eagle County Colorado District Attorney's Office
somehow found out about her story after a 19-year-old hotel employee
from Eagle, Colo., accused Bryant of rape in June 2003.
Vilhauer says prosecutors in the Bryant case showed up at the posh
Portland hotel where she works late last year, wanting to hear her
story. When she refused to provide them with details, Vilhauer says
the prosecutors didn't leave her alone.
Vilhauer said they stayed in the hotel overnight and happened to get
on the same elevator with her the next morning.
"They said 'we really want to talk you. We want to maybe get together
with you after work,'" Vilhauer said.
The young room service attendant said she told them she had nothing to
say.
"What happened between him [Bryant] and I, happened between him and
I," she said.
When Good Morning America contacted the Eagle County Colorado District
Attorney's Office with Vilhauer's claims, the office offered the
following statement. "We tried to speak with Tara Vilhauer twice. She
refused us, and we left. No information was exchanged."
Vilhauer says she felt as if the prosecutors interpreted the alleged
kiss as something different to what it actually was.
"I think they're trying to make this a dirty thing, a scandal, and it
wasn't that," Vilhauer said.
Vilhauer says Byrant was consistently respectful with her and that she
had no comment on his sexual assault case.
"He [Bryant] was always a gentleman towards me, as much as you can be
when you're married and you kiss somebody," Vilhauer said.
Vilhauer says Bryant and his Los Angeles Lakers teammates stayed at
her hotel about twice a year. She says Bryant began requesting that
she serve him after the first few times they met. Vilhauer says such
requests are not unusual with regular guests.
OH NO! A kiss? What's next, a big hug?
--
Dave Zero
"And I don't care about making an ass out of myself because most people
already realize I am one." - Dr. Kary B. Mullis
"I criticize by creation" - Cicero
"I'm not here to make people happy. I prefer to piss people off." - Liam
Gallagher
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s_knight8 <s_knight8@hotmail.com> wrote:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/US/Kobe_Bryant_Portland_040220-1.html
OH NO! A kiss? What's next, a big hug?
I'm thinking some earrings to go with the 4 mil ring. But that's just me.
: )
Go Blazers !
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"Dave Zero" <davezero@mindspring.com> wrote in message
OH NO! A kiss? What's next, a big hug?
--
Dave Zero
It does say a lot about someone who kisses another women (and not in a
friends meeting sorta way) while married..
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"Dan" <Pet_Sounds1@hotmail.com> wrote
It does say a lot about someone who kisses another women (and not in a
friends meeting sorta way) while married..
And odd that the scenario between Kobe and the present accuser goes right by
the same progression of events; spontaneous advances on a hotel employee
that's stupid enough to come to his room for any reason.
Chas
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In article <c18hhk$1esju3$1@ID-142071.news.uni-berlin.de>,
"Dan" <Pet_Sounds1@hotmail.com> wrote:
It does say a lot about someone who kisses another women (and not in a
friends meeting sorta way) while married..
Yes, it says he is a adultery. Is rape about sex? No it is about
violence. So the above says NOTHING about the rape case.
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--
If the women don't find you handsome, you haven't bought them enough beer.
"Dan" <Pet_Sounds1@hotmail.com> wrote
And odd that the scenario between Kobe and the present accuser goes right
by
the same progression of events; spontaneous advances on a hotel employee
that's stupid enough to come to his room for any reason.
Chas
women are stupid sometimes, what do you expect?
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In article <c18hhk$1esju3$1@ID-142071.news.uni-berlin.de>, "Dan" <Pet_Sounds1@hotmail.com> wrote: Yes, it says he is a adultery. Is rape about sex? No it is about violence. So the above says NOTHING about the rape case.
this kinda thing. sets doubt in the minds of the juror, and can make people
question whether or not they can believe/trust him because he's obviously
hidden somethings before. Also paints him in a very bad way, as someone who
not only cheats on his wife, but bold face lies to her about it.
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Dan wrote:
"Dave Zero" <davezero@mindspring.com> wrote in message
It does say a lot about someone who kisses another women (and not in a
friends meeting sorta way) while married..
It doesn't say anything about him legally. And whether or not it's ok
for him to kiss another woman while he's married, is between him
and his wife. And no one else.
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Chas wrote:
"Dan" <Pet_Sounds1@hotmail.com> wrote
And odd that the scenario between Kobe and the present accuser goes right by
the same progression of events; spontaneous advances on a hotel employee
that's stupid enough to come to his room for any reason.
Chas
The article strongly implied that prosecutors were rather desparate to talk
to the young lady, and she completely shined them. They were digging
hard for something that is not there.
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sets a precident, that someone who said he didn't do this kinda thing,
does
this kinda thing. sets doubt in the minds of the juror, and can make
people
question whether or not they can believe/trust him because he's obviously
hidden somethings before. Also paints him in a very bad way, as someone
who
not only cheats on his wife, but bold face lies to her about it.
Also shows that he knows the meaning of the word, "no".
Greg
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"Chainsaw" <uglyrumoursNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote
The article strongly implied that prosecutors were rather desparate to
talk
to the young lady, and she completely shined them. They were digging
hard for something that is not there.
See if she got a ring too.
c.
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On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 22:48:58 GMT, Chainsaw <uglyrumoursNOSPAM@yahoo.com>
Dan wrote:
It doesn't say anything about him legally. And whether or not it's ok
for him to kiss another woman while he's married, is between him
and his wife. And no one else.
Well, the other woman might want to have a say in the matter.
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Dan <Pet_Sounds1@hotmail.com> wrote:
"Dave Zero" <davezero@mindspring.com> wrote in message
It does say a lot about someone who kisses another women (and not in a
friends meeting sorta way) while married..
Oh yeah? What? That he's not entirely monogamous? Like that's news.....
--
Dave Zero
"And I don't care about making an ass out of myself because most people
already realize I am one." - Dr. Kary B. Mullis
"I criticize by creation" - Cicero
"I'm not here to make people happy. I prefer to piss people off." - Liam
Gallagher
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"Dave Zero" <davezero@mindspring.com> wrote
Oh yeah? What? That he's not entirely monogamous? Like that's news.....
In fact, it was important news.
Kobe Bryant was the poster boy for clean-cut, straight up, church-going,
monogamous black America; the home-town boy made good. The whole idea that
he was trickin' with a white girl while his wife tended to their first-born
was big news.
Chas
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On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 03:48:29 -0600, "Richard" <anonymous@127.000>
wrote:
s_knight8 wrote:
What does this have to do with the actual case?
Since the woman lives in another state, she can not be compelled to testity.
Yet, the damn prosecutor wants to find dirt in any corner he can and he
can't.
Sounds to me like the investigators wanted the woman to lie.
But why stop there? Why not investigate every female employee of every hotel
where ever Bryant has stayed?
Who knows? They could find a pattern where Bryant is a real womanizer and
shacks up in every hotel.
Let me guess; You are either black, one hell of a basketball fan or
both.
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On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 19:57:25 GMT, "Dave Zero"
<davezero@mindspring.com> wrote:
s_knight8 <s_knight8@hotmail.com> wrote:
(...)
Vilhauer says Bryant and his Los Angeles Lakers teammates stayed at
her hotel about twice a year. She says Bryant began requesting that
she serve him after the first few times they met. Vilhauer says such
requests are not unusual with regular guests.
OH NO! A kiss? What's next, a big hug?
Do you like the idea of your wife kissing other men - do you like to
watch? Sure you do! That's why such behavior in other married people
doesn't seem unusual to you at all. You're a real swinger, huh, boy?
BTW -- If you're not married don't you think it's a good time for you
to "come out?" There's a lot going on with people of your
"orientation" today.
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On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 13:11:12 -0800, "Dan" <Pet_Sounds1@hotmail.com>
wrote:
"Dave Zero" <davezero@mindspring.com> wrote in message
It does say a lot about someone who kisses another women (and not in a
friends meeting sorta way) while married..
I hate people who hug and kiss their friends. I don't
touch people unless I'm @$#*ing 'em or fighting 'em.
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Chas <chasclementsFLAME@comcast.net> wrote:
"Dave Zero" <davezero@mindspring.com> wrote
In fact, it was important news.
Was. This latest "kiss revelation" is pretty meaningless. It's not news,
it's muckraking.
Kobe Bryant was the poster boy for clean-cut, straight up,
church-going, monogamous black America; the home-town boy made good.
The whole idea that he was trickin' with a white girl while his wife
tended to their first-born was big news.
Chas
For one thing, I don't see what the hell color has to do with the
issue - either Kobe or the girl he was "trickin' with". Kobe wasn't a
poster boy any more than Charles Barkley is a role model. People wanted
to talk about what kind of guy he is and when he didn't get into trouble
the way so many young NBA stars do, the "clean cut boy" image grew until
he got caught.
Personally I think Kobe was dumb in getting married so young if he still
wanted to play the field, but do you remember what it was like being
nineteen, or even in your early twenties? I know I made more than my
fair share of dumb decisions at that age - especially when it came to
women.
Judge not, lest ye be judged.
--
Dave Zero
"And I don't care about making an ass out of myself because most people
already realize I am one." - Dr. Kary B. Mullis
"I criticize by creation" - Cicero
"I'm not here to make people happy. I prefer to piss people off." - Liam
Gallagher
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LeRoy Abdula <leab3@teranews.com> wrote:
On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 19:57:25 GMT, "Dave Zero"
<davezero@mindspring.com> wrote:
(...)
Vilhauer says Bryant and his Los Angeles Lakers teammates stayed at
her hotel about twice a year. She says Bryant began requesting that
she serve him after the first few times they met. Vilhauer says such
requests are not unusual with regular guests.
Do you like the idea of your wife kissing other men - do you like to
watch? Sure you do! That's why such behavior in other married people
doesn't seem unusual to you at all. You're a real swinger, huh, boy?
--
Dave Zero
"And I don't care about making an ass out of myself because most people
already realize I am one." - Dr. Kary B. Mullis
"I criticize by creation" - Cicero
"I'm not here to make people happy. I prefer to piss people off." - Liam
Gallagher
Um...I hate to break it to you and derail your train of smack, but I am
and have always been single.
BTW -- If you're not married don't you think it's a good time for you
to "come out?" There's a lot going on with people of your
"orientation" today.
Oh so you're not only judgemental, you're homophobic as well. What a
refreshing combination.
Shit dude, if I was gay, I'd probably have a lot less stress with my
love life than I do.
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--
If the women don't find you handsome, you haven't bought them enough beer.
does
people
who
Also shows that he knows the meaning of the word, "no".
Greg
it shows he doesn't know the meaning to a lot of words tho, that can cloud
peoples impression of him. you know, words like fidelity, wedding vow, "im
married"..
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On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 04:06:28 GMT, "Dave Zero"
<davezero@mindspring.com> wrote:
LeRoy Abdula <leab3@teranews.com> wrote:
--
Dave Zero
"And I don't care about making an ass out of myself because most people
already realize I am one." - Dr. Kary B. Mullis
"I criticize by creation" - Cicero
"I'm not here to make people happy. I prefer to piss people off." - Liam
Gallagher
Um...I hate to break it to you and derail your train of smack, but I am
and have always been single.
Yet you feel qualified to render "judgements" about what married
people should do. I've been single and I've been married - I can tell
you from experience that single people don't know #@($ about being
married and you have proved that.
BTW -- If you're not married don't you think it's a good time for you
to "come out?" There's a lot going on with people of your
"orientation" today.
Oh so you're not only judgemental, you're homophobic as well. What a
refreshing combination.
Not homophobic, boy, just trying to help you out.
Shit dude, if I was gay, I'd probably have a lot less stress with my
love life than I do.
Getting it on with women stresses you does it -- Guess I was right
about your "orientation", you just won't admit it.
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"Dave Zero" <davezero@mindspring.com> wrote
For one thing, I don't see what the hell color has to do with the
issue - either Kobe or the girl he was "trickin' with".
Really?
You haven't heard that Kobe's a 'black man' being 'lynched' for 'rapin' a
'white woman'? That the Sheriff's Department is racist? That it's a
'black/jewish' thing?
Hell, the *first* thing Kobe Bryant's defense team started asserting was a
racial angle to the whole mess.
I'm surprised you didn't know that.
Chas
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Chas <chasclementsFLAME@comcast.net> wrote:
"Dave Zero" <davezero@mindspring.com> wrote
For one thing, I don't see what the hell color has to do with the
issue - either Kobe or the girl he was "trickin' with".
Really?
You haven't heard that Kobe's a 'black man' being 'lynched' for
'rapin' a 'white woman'? That the Sheriff's Department is racist?
That it's a 'black/jewish' thing?
Of course I've HEARD it. That doesn't mean I think it's relevant.
Hell, the *first* thing Kobe Bryant's defense team started asserting
was a racial angle to the whole mess.
I'm surprised you didn't know that.
I did know that. It's a smart angle for his defensive team to play.
The only racial element to the case in my opinion is that the people of
Colorado may well have issues about Kobe because he is black. It's more
that I'm saying that whether he kissed or slept with black women, white
women, or any other variety, that's rather irrelevant.
--
Dave Zero
"And I don't care about making an ass out of myself because most people
already realize I am one." - Dr. Kary B. Mullis
"I criticize by creation" - Cicero
"I'm not here to make people happy. I prefer to piss people off." - Liam
Gallagher
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LeRoy Abdula <leab3@teranews.com> wrote:
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 04:06:28 GMT, "Dave Zero"
<davezero@mindspring.com> wrote:
Yet you feel qualified to render "judgements" about what married
people should do. I've been single and I've been married - I can tell
you from experience that single people don't know #@($ about being
married and you have proved that.
Fine. I've never been dead either so I guess I don't have any relevant
opinions about people wo've died either.
BTW -- If you're not married don't you think it's a good time for
you to "come out?" There's a lot going on with people of your
"orientation" today.
Oh so you're not only judgemental, you're homophobic as well. What a
refreshing combination.
Not homophobic, boy, just trying to help you out.
Help me out? Telling me to come out of the closet? That's help?
Shit dude, if I was gay, I'd probably have a lot less stress with my
love life than I do.
Getting it on with women stresses you does it -- Guess I was right
about your "orientation", you just won't admit it.
No dude, getting it on with women doesn't stress me out at all - it's
the drama and the the leading up to it that can be frustrating or
whatever. Then again I suppose what I said was wrong - if I was gay, I
might have just as complicated a love life as I do being straight.
--
Dave Zero
"And I don't care about making an ass out of myself because most people
already realize I am one." - Dr. Kary B. Mullis
"I criticize by creation" - Cicero
"I'm not here to make people happy. I prefer to piss people off." - Liam
Gallagher
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"Dave Zero" <davezero@mindspring.com> wrote
The only racial element to the case in my opinion is that the people of
Colorado may well have issues about Kobe because he is black.
So the people of Colorado may have issues about Kobe being black, but Kobe
can't have issues about whites, much less specific sorts of 'whites'?
It's more
that I'm saying that whether he kissed or slept with black women, white
women, or any other variety, that's rather irrelevant.
Doesn't seem to be 'irrelevant'- to anybody.
He's involved with a Jewish woman- there are strong feelings between Blacks
and Jews, on both sides. Jews are a minority in the US, much less in Eagle
County Colorado- in fact, there may well be far fewer Jews in Colorado than
are Blacks.
If the people of Eagle county are 'racist', why would they prosecute a black
on behalf of a jew? That seems contradictory to your whole theory of
'racism' there.
Chas
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Chas <chasclementsFLAME@comcast.net> wrote:
"Dave Zero" <davezero@mindspring.com> wrote
So the people of Colorado may have issues about Kobe being black, but
Kobe can't have issues about whites, much less specific sorts of
'whites'?
He can. I just don't see any evidence that he does. Looks to me that
Kobe has no issues with black people or white people, especially if
they're cute hotel employees.
It's more
that I'm saying that whether he kissed or slept with black women,
white women, or any other variety, that's rather irrelevant.
Doesn't seem to be 'irrelevant'- to anybody.
Besides me, at least.
He's involved with a Jewish woman- there are strong feelings between
Blacks and Jews, on both sides. Jews are a minority in the US, much
less in Eagle County Colorado- in fact, there may well be far fewer
Jews in Colorado than are Blacks.
If the people of Eagle county are 'racist', why would they prosecute
a black on behalf of a jew? That seems contradictory to your whole
theory of 'racism' there.
Chas
Chas, I don't claim to have a whole theory of racism. I'm just one guy
expressing my opinion. And I never said that the people in Eagle County
are "racist" - I only pointed out that some people perceive them to be.
And call me idealistic or naive, but I like to at least hang on to the
hope that this might be a trial of human being versus human being, not
"black versus jew"
--
Dave Zero
"And I don't care about making an ass out of myself because most people
already realize I am one." - Dr. Kary B. Mullis
"I criticize by creation" - Cicero
"I'm not here to make people happy. I prefer to piss people off." - Liam
Gallagher
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LaChine Sous wrote:
On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 03:48:29 -0600, "Richard" <anonymous@127.000>
wrote:
s_knight8 wrote:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/US/Kobe_Bryant_Portland_040220-1.ht
ml
Feb. 20 — Tara Vilhauer, a young Portland, Ore., hotel employee,
says she struck up a friendly rapport with returning guest Kobe Bryant
over the last few years, but she says their pleasant hotel room chats
stopped when things got a little too close for comfort.
What does this have to do with the actual case?
Since the woman lives in another state, she can not be compelled to
testity. Yet, the damn prosecutor wants to find dirt in any corner he can
and he can't. Sounds to me like the investigators wanted the woman to lie.
where Bryant is a real womanizer and shacks up in every hotel.
Let me guess; You are either black, one hell of a basketball fan or
both.
I am neither. I detest pro basketball for the fact the sport has become
commerically and racially biased.
How many pro teams have greater than 20% "white boys" on the team? NONE!
Of those pro teams, how many have black coaches and or owners? 3?
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"Dave Zero" <davezero@mindspring.com> wrote
......Looks to me that
Kobe has no issues with black people or white people, especially if
they're cute hotel employees.
None of the reports of the event have him doing much of anything except
deliberate humiliation, if not rape. It's hard to say what his motivation
was.
And call me idealistic or naive, but I like to at least hang on to the
hope that this might be a trial of human being versus human being, not
"black versus jew"
Kobe's Defense Team is who is trying to make this a racial issue. They have
tried to make it a 'black' and 'white' issue, but she isn't who he ought to
be mad at, is she?
Chas
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Dave Zero wrote:
Chas <chasclementsFLAME@comcast.net> wrote:
"Dave Zero" <davezero@mindspring.com> wrote
For one thing, I don't see what the hell color has to do with the
issue - either Kobe or the girl he was "trickin' with".
Of course I've HEARD it. That doesn't mean I think it's relevant.
I did know that. It's a smart angle for his defensive team to play.
Especially after the prosecution played it last fall, huh? Chas is just
outraged that both sides are now playing the race card.
--
Gary Collard
SABR-L Moderator
gmcollard@yahoo.com
"You can't just go out and buy a championship ring...well, unless
Dwight Gooden runs out of coke." -- Adam Carolla
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"Gary Collard" <garycollard@netscape.net> wrote
I did know that. It's a smart angle for his defensive team to play.
Especially after the prosecution played it last fall, huh? Chas is just
outraged that both sides are now playing the race card.
To what do you refer?
No one has said anything about Kobe's race, but Kobe. No one has brought up
the accusers race, but Kobe. No one has commented on his possible attitudes,
nor hers, but Kobe. No one has questioned the police efforts on behalf of
the accused as being racially motivated, except Kobe.
And the possibility of Kobe being racially/ethnically/religiously motivated
against a Jewess are as equally probable as any such imputed in the
alternative.
Chas
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Also shows that he knows the meaning of the word, "no".
Greg
it shows he doesn't know the meaning to a lot of words tho, that can cloud
peoples impression of him. you know, words like fidelity, wedding vow, "im
married"..
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On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 02:27:22 GMT, "greg brown" <noway@way.com> wrote:
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