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I live in the USA. I once sent a certified letter to someone because
of a legal mess, and demanding they satisfy the problem, or I would
take them to court. They refused to sign for the letter, and it was
returned to me.
So recently, I received a certified letter, and it's from someone that
has been harassing me, and whom I am considering getting a restraining
order against. As soon as I saw the letter I knew it was from them,
and told the post office clerk that I refuse to sign for it. She told
me that I MUST accept it. I said I would NOT, and she told me it's a
law that I MUST accept it. I explained to her that I had one refused
once, and she again told me I MUST accept it. I walked out of the
post office. Ever since, the P.O. puts a notice in my mailbox to pick
up the damn thing.
I REFUSE to accept it, period......
What are my legal rights in this matter? Must I accept it? What if I
already had the restraining order?
PS. I emailed the USPS and have not gotten a reply, and I phoned them,
got put on hold for over an hour and got sent right back to where I
started. Obviously they do not help...
Anyone know?
Thanks
Mille
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mille@myhome.com wrote:
I live in the USA. I once sent a certified letter to someone because
of a legal mess, and demanding they satisfy the problem, or I would
take them to court. They refused to sign for the letter, and it was
returned to me.
So recently, I received a certified letter, and it's from someone that
has been harassing me, and whom I am considering getting a restraining
order against. As soon as I saw the letter I knew it was from them,
and told the post office clerk that I refuse to sign for it. She told
me that I MUST accept it. I said I would NOT, and she told me it's a
law that I MUST accept it. I explained to her that I had one refused
once, and she again told me I MUST accept it. I walked out of the
post office. Ever since, the P.O. puts a notice in my mailbox to pick
up the damn thing.
I REFUSE to accept it, period......
What are my legal rights in this matter? Must I accept it? What if I
already had the restraining order?
PS. I emailed the USPS and have not gotten a reply, and I phoned them,
got put on hold for over an hour and got sent right back to where I
started. Obviously they do not help...
Anyone know?
Thanks
Mille
Technically, they are correct as I have found out.
UPS Conditions of Delivery Rule D042
1.3 Refusal after delivery:
After delivery am addressee may mark a mailpiece "Refused" and return it
within a reasonable time, if the piece or any attachment is not opened. Mail
that may not be refused and returned unopened under this provision may be
returned with a correct address and new postage. The following may not be
refused and returned postage-free after delivery:
a. Pieces sent as registered, insured, certified, collect on delivery (COD),
and return receipt for merchandise mail.
b. Response mail to the addressee's sales promotion, solicitation,
announcement or other advertisment that was not refused when offered to the
addressee.
------------
http://pe.usps.gov/cpim/ftp/manuals/DMM/D042.pdf
Requires adobe acrobat reader.
----------
What you will need to do is to accept it, leave it unopened, place a new
stamp on it and return it.
Everybody is happy except for the sender who gets his own crap back.
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On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 23:35:43 -0600, "Richard" <Anonymous@127.000>
wrote:
mille@myhome.com wrote:
Technically, they are correct as I have found out.
WRONG
UPS Conditions of Delivery Rule D042
1.3 Refusal after delivery:
After delivery am addressee may mark a mailpiece "Refused" and return it
within a reasonable time, if the piece or any attachment is not opened. Mail
that may not be refused and returned unopened under this provision may be
returned with a correct address and new postage. The following may not be
refused and returned postage-free after delivery:
a. Pieces sent as registered, insured, certified, collect on delivery (COD),
and return receipt for merchandise mail.
Except that it isn't "delivered" until the person signs for it...
b. Response mail to the addressee's sales promotion, solicitation,
announcement or other advertisment that was not refused when offered to the
addressee.
------------
http://pe.usps.gov/cpim/ftp/manuals/DMM/D042.pdf
Requires adobe acrobat reader.
----------
What you will need to do is to accept it, leave it unopened, place a new
stamp on it and return it.
Everybody is happy except for the sender who gets his own crap back.
WRONG - you can just refuse to accept it. The postmaster has to
return it as refused.
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Falconnier wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 23:35:43 -0600, "Richard" <Anonymous@127.000>
wrote:
mille@myhome.com wrote:
I live in the USA. I once sent a certified letter to someone because
of a legal mess, and demanding they satisfy the problem, or I would
take them to court. They refused to sign for the letter, and it was
returned to me.
So recently, I received a certified letter, and it's from someone that
has been harassing me, and whom I am considering getting a restraining
order against. As soon as I saw the letter I knew it was from them,
and told the post office clerk that I refuse to sign for it. She told
me that I MUST accept it. I said I would NOT, and she told me it's a
law that I MUST accept it. I explained to her that I had one refused
once, and she again told me I MUST accept it. I walked out of the
post office. Ever since, the P.O. puts a notice in my mailbox to pick
up the damn thing.
I REFUSE to accept it, period......
What are my legal rights in this matter? Must I accept it? What if I
already had the restraining order?
PS. I emailed the USPS and have not gotten a reply, and I phoned them,
got put on hold for over an hour and got sent right back to where I
started. Obviously they do not help...
Anyone know?
Thanks
Mille
Technically, they are correct as I have found out.
WRONG
UPS Conditions of Delivery Rule D042
1.3 Refusal after delivery:
After delivery am addressee may mark a mailpiece "Refused" and return it
within a reasonable time, if the piece or any attachment is not opened.
Mail that may not be refused and returned unopened under this provision
may be returned with a correct address and new postage. The following may
not be refused and returned postage-free after delivery: a. Pieces sent as
registered, insured, certified, collect on delivery (COD), and return
receipt for merchandise mail.
Except that it isn't "delivered" until the person signs for it...
b. Response mail to the addressee's sales promotion, solicitation,
announcement or other advertisment that was not refused when offered to
the addressee. ------------ http://pe.usps.gov/cpim/ftp/manuals/DMM/D042.
pdf Requires adobe acrobat reader. ---------- What you will need to do is
to accept it, leave it unopened, place a new stamp on it and return
it. Everybody is happy except for the sender who gets his own crap back.
WRONG - you can just refuse to accept it. The postmaster has to
return it as refused.
Don't argue with me. Tell that to the USPS. They wrote the rule, not me.
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On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 23:35:43 -0600, "Richard" <Anonymous@127.000>
wrote:
mille@myhome.com wrote:
As soon as I saw the letter I knew it was from them,
and told the post office clerk that I refuse to sign for it. She told
me that I MUST accept it. I said I would NOT, and she told me it's a
law that I MUST accept it.
Technically, they are correct as I have found out.
Wrong.
UPS Conditions of Delivery Rule D042
1.3 Refusal after delivery:
After delivery am addressee may mark a mailpiece "Refused" and return it
within a reasonable time, if the piece or any attachment is not opened. Mail
that may not be refused and returned unopened under this provision may be
returned with a correct address and new postage. The following may not be
refused and returned postage-free after delivery:
a. Pieces sent as registered, insured, certified, collect on delivery (COD),
and return receipt for merchandise mail.
Which doesn't say that the mail can't be refused, but only that the
mail can't be refused *and* returned postage-free *after* delivery.
AND!!!
You missed the preceding section of the Domestic Mail Manual (DMM)
D042 (Conditions of Delivery)" which reads in its entirety as follows:
"1.2 Refusal at Delivery
"The addressee may refuse to accept a mailpiece when it is offered for
delivery."
No qualifications, no limitations, no nothing.
The original poster was offered a mailpiece for delivery and refused
it WHEN IT WAS OFFERED FOR DELIVERY.
He had the right to do that.
*Dan Evans
*"One is not superior merely because one
*sees the world as odious."
*Francios Rene de Chateaubriand (1768-1848).
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mille@myhome.com wrote:
Technically, they are correct as I have found out.
UPS Conditions of Delivery Rule D042
1.3 Refusal after delivery:
After delivery am addressee may mark a mailpiece "Refused" and return it
within a reasonable time, if the piece or any attachment is not opened.
Mail
that may not be refused and returned unopened under this provision may be
returned with a correct address and new postage. The following may not be
refused and returned postage-free after delivery:
a. Pieces sent as registered, insured, certified, collect on delivery
(COD),
and return receipt for merchandise mail.
b. Response mail to the addressee's sales promotion, solicitation,
announcement or other advertisment that was not refused when offered to
the
addressee.
------------
http://pe.usps.gov/cpim/ftp/manuals/DMM/D042.pdf
Requires adobe acrobat reader.
----------
What you will need to do is to accept it, leave it unopened, place a new
stamp on it and return it.
Everybody is happy except for the sender who gets his own crap back.
Richard:
If you are going to embark on the treacherous path of statutory/regulatory
interpretation, here's a tip. Read carefully. Every word counts.
The sentence beginning: "After delivery an addressee may mark a mailpiece
"Refused" and return it . . .", gives the addressee the right to mark a
mailpiece "Refused" and sent it back through the mail to the sender without
paying postage. That's all it means. It says nothing about the right of
the addressee to refuse to accept it from the post office. Therefore, the
later sentence, that says that certified mail "may not be refused and
returned unopened under this provision . . ." means that the addressee,
AFTER receiving the certified mail, does not have the right to mark it
"Refused" and sent it back without postage. That's all. This says nothing
and means nothing about the right of the addressee to refuse to accept it
from the post office.
Mille:
The purpose of certified mail is to prove delivery. There is no need to
prove that the addressee accepted it, or opened it, or read it. We don't
care whether it is accepted or read. If the addressee won't sign for it,
the postal service will return it, with a notation indicating that it was
refused. Then we can use that to prove, if necessary, that the letter was
mailed. We prove that things were mailed, and that's enough under the law,
to create the presumption that it was delivered. We're done. If someone
says, "I was never notified because I didn't accept the certified mail", the
court would say, "We don't care if you read your mail, all the other party
is required to do is mail the notice." And of course, if the postal service
says delivery was refused, that proves we had the proper address.
The postal clerk was wrong. When they stop putting those notices in your
mailbox, it will be because someone who knows something found out about it
and sent it back to the sender. If they don't stop giving you those
notices, you can call the local postmaster, or visit. That person will know
the rules.
McGyver
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I agree that you do not HAVE to accept it, but the law might later treat you
as if you DID accept it.
There are places where, in a legal context, the law sets up a presumption
that someone who refuses to sign, is deemed to have been served. (The
statute might go on to specify that the correct way to create this
presumption, is to send by certified mail with another copy by regular
mail.) So, refusing to sign is not a magic solution. The addressee might be
losing much by not knowing what was in the envelope, while gaining only a
relatively thin cover of deniability.
But, in the case of a Summons & Complaint, the same laws would often stop
short of letting a plaintiff get a default judgment solely on the basis of
such presumed service. There would be other remedies for the plaintiff,
based on local law, like a follow-up by affixing a copy to your door ("nail
and mail" service). And if you wait for that, you'll be losing time that
could otherwise be used to get legal advice about whatever is in the
envelope.
You'd have to ask a local lawyer. Who, of course, could not give you a
complete answer without knowing what was in the envelope. Which, of course,
you won't be able to tell the lawyer, if you just hide from the mailman.
I'm sure there must be situations where playing ostrich has its benefits,.
But, as a legal strategy, it's not as smart as you probably hope it is.
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I live in the USA.
[Snip]
So recently, I received a certified letter, and it's from someone that
has been harassing me, and whom I am considering getting a restraining
order against. As soon as I saw the letter I knew it was from them,
and told the post office clerk that I refuse to sign for it. She told
me that I MUST accept it.
_No,_ you DO NOT "HAVE" to accept ANY Mail or Parcel from ANYONE, let
alone from a Gov't Employee who wouldn't know The Law if it RAN, SCREAMING
Up to her and BIT Her On The Nose...>
I said I would NOT, and she told me it's a
law that I MUST accept it.
PARTICULARLY Gov't Employees who have elected to receive their Gov't-Paid
Pre-Frontal Lobotomy...
I explained to her that I had one refused
once,
Irrelevant...
and she again told me I MUST accept it.
And if you so desire, tell her again that you WILL NOT accept it... or
don't...
I walked out of the
post office. Ever since, the P.O. puts a notice in my mailbox to pick
up the damn thing.
Yeah? And?
Wipe yer Ass with the the Notices...
I REFUSE to accept it, period......
What are my legal rights in this matter?
You have The Legal Right to REFUSE DELIVERY, To Spin On your Heels And
Walk Out Of The PO, and To Wipe Your Ass With ALL Notices From The PO...
Must I accept it? What if I
already had the restraining order?
What if there's Peanut Butter In the Czar's Moat?
PS. I emailed the USPS and have not gotten a reply, and I phoned them,
got put on hold for over an hour and got sent right back to where I
started. Obviously they do not help...
YOINK!!! Y'think not??
Anyone know?
Yes, Ask Me - I Know...
Thanks
Mille
Naughtius "Sign Zee Papers, OLT MAANNnnnn" Maximus
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um.. it almost makes too much sense that you can refuse mail. you have the
ability to withhold mail, forward mail, temporarily forward mail and
completely terminate mail (if you have a P.O. Box). I would assume you
could call up the Postal Service and tell them you don't want mail. Say you
are trying to avoid being harassed, then it sounds sort of legit. It would
be easier just to chunk the box if possible or move to a property without a
box, though.
On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 23:35:43 -0600, "Richard" <Anonymous@127.000>
wrote:
As soon as I saw the letter I knew it was from them,
and told the post office clerk that I refuse to sign for it. She told
me that I MUST accept it. I said I would NOT, and she told me it's a
law that I MUST accept it.
Wrong.
Which doesn't say that the mail can't be refused, but only that the
mail can't be refused *and* returned postage-free *after* delivery.
AND!!!
You missed the preceding section of the Domestic Mail Manual (DMM)
D042 (Conditions of Delivery)" which reads in its entirety as follows:
"1.2 Refusal at Delivery
"The addressee may refuse to accept a mailpiece when it is offered for
delivery."
No qualifications, no limitations, no nothing.
The original poster was offered a mailpiece for delivery and refused
it WHEN IT WAS OFFERED FOR DELIVERY.
He had the right to do that.
*Dan Evans
*"One is not superior merely because one
*sees the world as odious."
*Francios Rene de Chateaubriand (1768-1848).
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Falconnier wrote:
mille@myhome.com wrote:
I live in the USA. I once sent a certified letter to someone
because
of a legal mess, and demanding they satisfy the problem, or I would
take them to court. They refused to sign for the letter, and it was
returned to me.
So recently, I received a certified letter, and it's from someone
that
has been harassing me, and whom I am considering getting a
restraining
order against. As soon as I saw the letter I knew it was from them,
and told the post office clerk that I refuse to sign for it. She
told
me that I MUST accept it. I said I would NOT, and she told me it's
a law that I MUST accept it. I explained to her that I had one
refused
once, and she again told me I MUST accept it. I walked out of the
post office. Ever since, the P.O. puts a notice in my mailbox to
pick
up the damn thing.
I REFUSE to accept it, period......
What are my legal rights in this matter? Must I accept it? What if
I already had the restraining order?
PS. I emailed the USPS and have not gotten a reply, and I phoned
them,
got put on hold for over an hour and got sent right back to where I
started. Obviously they do not help...
Anyone know?
Thanks
Mille
Technically, they are correct as I have found out.
UPS Conditions of Delivery Rule D042
1.3 Refusal after delivery:
After delivery am addressee may mark a mailpiece "Refused" and return
it
within a reasonable time, if the piece or any attachment is not opened.
Mail that may not be refused and returned unopened under this provision
may be returned with a correct address and new postage. The following
may
not be refused and returned postage-free after delivery: a. Pieces sent
as
registered, insured, certified, collect on delivery (COD), and return
receipt for merchandise mail.
b. Response mail to the addressee's sales promotion, solicitation,
announcement or other advertisment that was not refused when offered to
the addressee. ------------
http://pe.usps.gov/cpim/ftp/manuals/DMM/D042.
pdf Requires adobe acrobat reader. ---------- What you will need to do
is
to accept it, leave it unopened, place a new stamp on it and return
it. Everybody is happy except for the sender who gets his own crap back.
Don't argue with me. Tell that to the USPS. They wrote the rule, not me.
He's arguing with you because you can't read what you posted, Bullis.
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I can't speak for the US postal system, but in Canada whether you have a
PO box or an address, when you get a notice that something is
registered, you go to the nearest post office usually. You show them
the card and they get the letter. The first thing you say is you are
not expecting any registered mail. It is proably not for you. Ask them
to show you the envelope. They will. If they don't then simply walk
away. If they show you the envelop with or without an return address,
you simply say. I don't know who it is from. It is unsolicited mail.
Ask them to return it to the sender with the "Return to sender. Sender
unknown." That is the end of it. Happens all the time.
However, note this, if you give someone your address, say a mortgage
company or a credit card company to whom you own money, or even the
other parties in a lawsuit you may be involved in or vehicle
registration/parking/speeding ticket and if you list your
mailing address, or your home address, as your "address" and they send
you something, you cannot say you did not get it. IF that is your
address, then it is assumed you got the mail. So be very careful about
saying you didn't get mail because if you make it impossible to be
served or contacted, the courts often allow service by way of witness.
In other words. Delivery of mail is witnessed (nailed to your door,
whatever) and you are presumed to be notified or served.
So it can work to your advantage and disadvantage.
And for those that think that ripping up a traffic ticket and saying the
didn't get it or get notice form the courts, here is the test.
If you took your baby to the hospital and the doctor said I will call
you in an hour. If the doctor never called would you leave your baby
there for weeks, months, or years? No, in an hour's time you would go
to the hospital or phone the doctor or find that baby. Same with a
ticket. You know you got the ticket, if you don't hear from the courts
or whatever the process is, you phone and find out what is wrong rather
than waiting until they come after you and you say I didn't get notice
or I moved!
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On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 09:43:25 -0800, McGyver wrote:
The purpose of certified mail is to prove delivery. There is no need to
prove that the addressee accepted it, or opened it, or read it. We don't
care whether it is accepted or read. If the addressee won't sign for it,
the postal service will return it, with a notation indicating that it was
refused. Then we can use that to prove, if necessary, that the letter was
mailed. We prove that things were mailed, and that's enough under the law,
to create the presumption that it was delivered. We're done. If someone
says, "I was never notified because I didn't accept the certified mail", the
court would say, "We don't care if you read your mail, all the other party
is required to do is mail the notice." And of course, if the postal service
says delivery was refused, that proves we had the proper address.
You know the law better than I. I am not contesting you on that. But I
don't see where you get the presumption of "Refused". The recipient
didn't necessarily refuse it. He may not have gotten the notice or
mistook it for junk mail. He may have been out of town for a few
weeks. (when I'm on vacation and my neighbor retrieves my mail, I'm
pretty sure they wouldn't go to the PO and sign for something). The
post office refused to deliver it.
I never picked up the last certified letter I received. I'm pretty
sure it was from my HOA and if so I know what it was about and I fixed
the problem on my own. I didn't refuse the letter, I would have been
glad to get it. But my delivery PO is open Mon-Fri, 9-5. I work
Mon-Fri, 8-6, and 40 miles away to boot. I'm simply not taking a half
day off from work to go to the PO. I would have been glad to waive
signature if they would.
If it's confirmation of delivery you seek, USPS has a service called
Delivery Confirmation. It costs 55 cents retail or 13 cents if you
generate an electronic label. It applies only to parcels, but you
could send a letter in a small box First Class with DC for less than a
buck. It does not require any positive action on the part of
recipient. It will be delivered if the address is valid, and the DC
number can be checked online. It seems to me a far superior and
cheaper means of confirming delivery, and if the law doesn't recognize
this service (likely not), it should.
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