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You know, my great-great-great grandfather died defending this stuff
from the British. Now our own government is going to try to take it
away.
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,62764,00.html
My name is Bond, James Bond.
...............
WASHINGTON -- Do you have to tell the police your name? Depending on
how the Supreme Court rules, the answer could be the difference
between arrest and freedom.
The justices heard arguments Monday in a first-of-its kind case that
asks whether people can be punished for refusing to identify
themselves.
The court took up the appeal of a Nevada cattle rancher who was
arrested after he told a deputy that he had done nothing wrong and
didn't have to reveal his name or show an ID during an encounter on a
rural road four years ago.
Larry "Dudley" Hiibel, 59, was prosecuted, based on his silence, and
finds himself at the center of a major privacy rights battle.
"I would do it all over again," Hiibel, dressed in cowboy hat, boots
and a bolo tie, said outside the court. "That's one of our fundamental
rights as American citizens, to remain silent."
The case will clarify police powers in the post-Sept. 11 era,
determining if officials can demand to see identification whenever
they deem it necessary.
Nevada senior deputy attorney general Conrad Hafen told justices that
"identifying yourself is a neutral act" that helps police in their
investigations and doesn't -- by itself -- incriminate anyone.
But if that is allowed, several justices asked, what will be next? A
fingerprint? Telephone number? E-mail address? What about a national
identification card?
"The government could require name tags, color codes," Hiibel's
lawyer, Robert Dolan, told the court.
At the heart of the case is an intersection of the Fourth Amendment,
which protects people from unreasonable searches, and the Fifth
Amendment right to remain silent. Hiibel claims both of those rights
were violated.
Justice Antonin Scalia, however, expressed doubts. He said officers
faced with suspicious people need authority to get the facts.
"I cannot imagine any responsible citizen would have objected to
giving the name," Scalia said.
Justices are revisiting their 1968 decision that said police may
briefly detain someone on reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing, without
the stronger standard of probable cause, to get more information.
Nevada argues that during such brief detentions, known as Terry stops
after the 1968 ruling, people should be required to answer questions
about their identities.
Justice Sandra Day O'Connor pointed out the court never has given
police the authority to demand someone's identification, without
probable cause they have done something wrong. But she also
acknowledged police might want to run someone's name through computers
to check for a criminal history.
The encounter in this case, which was videotaped, shows Hiibel by a
pickup truck parked off a road near Winnemucca, Nevada, on May 21,
2000.
An officer, called to the scene because of a complaint about arguing
between Hiibel and his daughter in the truck, asked Hiibel 11 times
for his identification or his name.
Hiibel refused, at one point saying, "If you've got something take me
to jail" and "I don't want to talk. I've done nothing. I've broken no
laws."
Hiibel never acted in a threatening manner and cooperated when
handcuffed. His daughter, a teenager at the time, was thrown to the
ground and arrested when she protested his arrest, the video shows.
She was not convicted of any crime.
Hiibel was convicted of a misdemeanor charge of resisting arrest. He
was fined $250.
Nevada is supported by the Bush administration and two criminal
justice groups. Organizations backing Hiibel include the American
Civil Liberties Union, the Cato Institute, privacy groups and
advocates for the homeless.
Marc Rotenberg, president of the Electronic Privacy Information
Center, said if Hiibel loses, the government will be free to use its
extensive data bases to keep tabs on people.
"A name is now no longer a simple identifier; it is the key to a vast,
cross-referenced system of public and private databases, which lay
bare the most intimate features of an individual's life," Rotenberg
told the court in a filing.
The case is Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of the state of
Nevada, 03-5554
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Halloween Letters wrote:
You know, my great-great-great grandfather died defending this stuff
from the British. Now our own government is going to try to take it
away.
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,62764,00.html
My name is Bond, James Bond.
To my knowledge there is no constitutional or federal requirement to have
identification, let alone a name.
What new born baby is given a document identifying that baby? None.
Oh sure the birth certificate is required by the state, maybe. But not by
any federal law.
Then what is absolute proof as to whom you are?
Driver's license? Easily faked.
Passport? Easily faked.
And just about any thing that requires paper is also easily faked.
Years ago, a Cincinnati Bengal was stopped by an officer for some reason.
He was arrested for giving false identification.
Why? He missed his SSN by one number.
I don't recall the outcome of the case, but I can bet that the officer was
slapped around good for being such an asshole about it.
The SSN is a tracking item used solely by the IRS.
It is not a fool proof method of identification.
An officer stops a 10 year old boy on the street who is walking by himself.
"What's your name?"
"John Smith".
"You got any proof of that?"
"What would you like to see? My driver's license, credit cards, or my CIA
credentials?"
And some jackasses think that the only way you exist is to be listed in the
phone book.
Are your kids listed in the phone book?
Sorry, they don't exist.
There is no law any where in the united states that requires a person to
carry identification except when driving a motor vehicle.
Even then, that is generally not a crime.
"What's your name?"
"Bond. James Bond."
"Yeah, right clown."
You whip out your driver's license and prove it.
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You know, my great-great-great grandfather died defending this stuff
from the British. Now our own government is going to try to take it
away.
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,62764,00.html
<SNIP>
I am sorry to say but that guy was stupid. I already saw this in the news
yesterday on CNN. Hell I would just give him my ID and answer a few of their
dumb questions and get the hell out of dodge!
RAMCable
--
Only two things are infinite, the universe and stupidity. I am not so sure
about the former... -Albert Einstein
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On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 22:30:29 +0000, RAMCable wrote:
<SNIP>
I am sorry to say but that guy was stupid. I already saw this in the news
yesterday on CNN. Hell I would just give him my ID and answer a few of their
dumb questions and get the hell out of dodge!
The problem with that, depending on the police agency, is that your name
may get entered in a database and a particular encounter recorded by
police when there was no arrest and you had done nothing wrong. Get enough
of those, and you may find next time you are stopped (especially if states
are sharing that information with other states and it's out of state) the
police may not be so friendly to you. Just a thought.
--
Never underestimate the power of a free hat.
-Eric Cartman (South Park)
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On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 22:30:29 +0000, RAMCable wrote:
The problem with that, depending on the police agency, is that your name
may get entered in a database and a particular encounter recorded by
police when there was no arrest and you had done nothing wrong. Get enough
of those, and you may find next time you are stopped (especially if states
are sharing that information with other states and it's out of state) the
police may not be so friendly to you. Just a thought.
--
Never underestimate the power of a free hat.
-Eric Cartman (South Park)
I wouldnt give the details. If all it takes to get my docs is someone
pretending to
be a cop, its a sorry state of affairs innit.
--
Mimic
ZGF0YWZsZXhAY2FubmFiaXNtYWlsLmNvbQ== ( www.hidemyemail.net )
"Without knowledge you have fear. With fear you create your own nightmares."
"Alzheimer's, cheaper than rohypnol"
"There are 10 types of people in the world. Those that understand Binary,
and those that dont."
"He who controls Google, controls the world".
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RAMCable wrote:
<SNIP>
I am sorry to say but that guy was stupid. I already saw this in the news
yesterday on CNN. Hell I would just give him my ID and answer a few of
their dumb questions and get the hell out of dodge!
Still, there is no known law that requires any person within the boundaries
of the USA to have any type of formal ID on them. To be jailed over the
issue is a #@($head asshole for a cop.
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Richard wrote:
RAMCable wrote:
Still, there is no known law that requires any person within the
boundaries
of the USA to have any type of formal ID on them. To be jailed over
the
issue is a #@($head asshole for a cop.
I would agree. I just came from a meeting with the Sheriff and we got
into a discussion about ID. (I hadn't read the Wired article yet.)
The deputy I was speaking with would like to see better ID tracking,
since we have so many illegal aliens and so many fake ID's around.
They don't even ask for ID unless they really feel it is neccesary (or
on a traffic stop).
As for me, I don't really care if they get my ID. Wierd.
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On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 13:45:16 -0600, Richard wrote:
RAMCable wrote:
Still, there is no known law that requires any person within the boundaries
of the USA to have any type of formal ID on them. To be jailed over the
issue is a #@($head asshole for a cop.
Actually, all US permanent residents (green card holders) must produce
their green card on the demand of an immigration officer
(http://uscis.gov/graphics/howdoi/PermRes.htm). "The Permanent Resident
Card, Form I-551, is issued to all Permanent Residents as evidence of
alien registration and their permanent status in the US. The card must be
in your possession at all times. While that does not require that you have
on your person at all times, it does require that you have a currently
valid card and that you know where it is and can show it to an immigration
officer, if requested"
--
Never underestimate the power of a free hat.
-Eric Cartman (South Park)
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On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 13:45:16 -0600, Richard wrote:
Actually, all US permanent residents (green card holders) must produce
their green card on the demand of an immigration officer
(http://uscis.gov/graphics/howdoi/PermRes.htm). "The Permanent Resident
Card, Form I-551, is issued to all Permanent Residents as evidence of
alien registration and their permanent status in the US. The card must be
in your possession at all times. While that does not require that you have
on your person at all times, it does require that you have a currently
valid card and that you know where it is and can show it to an immigration
officer, if requested"
--
Never underestimate the power of a free hat.
-Eric Cartman (South Park)
Okay NOW I agree with the cop being a #@($head and getting jailed for that.
As for the INS card, it is now a peach color card with a HUGE black strip,
looks like a special type of film, about 4/5 of the card. Believe me because
I HAVE one unfortunately. Though having to spend about $200 just to renew
it! Back in the 80s it was only $90!!! I wonder what price will it be after
ten years which is the same date my card expires. This just sucks...
RAMCable
--
Only two things are infinite, the universe and stupidity. I am not so sure
about the former... -Albert Einstein
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On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 07:13:19 +0000, RAMCable wrote:
Okay NOW I agree with the cop being a #@($head and getting jailed for that.
As for the INS card, it is now a peach color card with a HUGE black strip,
looks like a special type of film, about 4/5 of the card. Believe me because
I HAVE one unfortunately. Though having to spend about $200 just to renew
it! Back in the 80s it was only $90!!! I wonder what price will it be after
ten years which is the same date my card expires. This just sucks...
Yeah, I have one too. Hopefully it won't be 10 years for me, I'm eligible
for citizenship in about 2 1/2 years.
--
Never underestimate the power of a free hat.
-Eric Cartman (South Park)
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"RAMCable" <RAMCable@sbcglobal.net> wrote ...
"Halloween Letters" <bill.gates@sco.com> wrote ...
<SNIP>
I am sorry to say but that guy was stupid. I already saw this in the news
yesterday on CNN. Hell I would just give him my ID and answer a few of
their
dumb questions and get the hell out of dodge!
Are your rights and privacy that unimportant to you that you would
relinquish them so readily? If the police wanted to search someone's home
without a warrant, should he also relinquish his rights? I agree with
Justice Brandeis that the right to be let alone is the one most valued by
civilized people:
"The makers of our Constitution...conferred, as against the government, the
right to be let alone--the most comprehensive of rights and the right most
valued by civilized men."
--Justice Louis D. Brandeis
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Rev Turd Fredericks wrote:
Yeah, I have one too. Hopefully it won't be 10 years for me, I'm eligible
for citizenship in about 2 1/2 years.
Then you can forget ever becoming Mara's favourite Canadian.
--
Froz ...
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<SNIP>> >
Okay NOW I agree with the cop being a #@($head and getting jailed for
that.
As for the INS card, it is now a peach color card with a HUGE black
strip,
looks like a special type of film, about 4/5 of the card. Believe me
because
I HAVE one unfortunately. Though having to spend about $200 just to
renew
it! Back in the 80s it was only $90!!! I wonder what price will it be
after
ten years which is the same date my card expires. This just sucks...
Yeah, I have one too. Hopefully it won't be 10 years for me, I'm eligible
for citizenship in about 2 1/2 years.
--
Never underestimate the power of a free hat.
-Eric Cartman (South Park)
I don't even WANT to become a US citizen until much later in my life. Since
I am just a Resident here I didn't fill out those stupid cards at the US
Postal office when you're 18 years of age. So I am just waiting for now.
RAMCable
--
Only two things are infinite, the universe and stupidity. I am not so sure
about the former... -Albert Einstein
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"RAMCable" <RAMCable@sbcglobal.net> wrote ...
their
Are your rights and privacy that unimportant to you that you would
relinquish them so readily? If the police wanted to search someone's home
without a warrant, should he also relinquish his rights? I agree with
Justice Brandeis that the right to be let alone is the one most valued by
civilized people:
"The makers of our Constitution...conferred, as against the government,
the
right to be let alone--the most comprehensive of rights and the right most
valued by civilized men."
--Justice Louis D. Brandeis
Maybe just answering their stupid questions just so I can get out of there
is fine by me but since NOW you are talking about searching things around
without a warrant? NOW that is different. Hell I wouldn't want anyone in my
home just because they got the @$#*in curiosity of what I got in my home!
RAMCable
--
Only two things are infinite, the universe and stupidity. I am not so sure
about the former... -Albert Einstein
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On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:06:20 -0500, FrozenNorth wrote:
Rev Turd Fredericks wrote:
Then you can forget ever becoming Mara's favourite Canadian.
LOL. And by the way, you spelled favorite wrong :-)
--
Never underestimate the power of a free hat.
-Eric Cartman (South Park)
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On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 22:58:27 +0000, RAMCable wrote:
<SNIP>> >
Okay NOW I agree with the cop being a #@($head and getting jailed for
that.
As for the INS card, it is now a peach color card with a HUGE black
strip,
looks like a special type of film, about 4/5 of the card. Believe me
because
I HAVE one unfortunately. Though having to spend about $200 just to
renew
it! Back in the 80s it was only $90!!! I wonder what price will it be
after
ten years which is the same date my card expires. This just sucks...
I don't even WANT to become a US citizen until much later in my life. Since
I am just a Resident here I didn't fill out those stupid cards at the US
Postal office when you're 18 years of age. So I am just waiting for now.
Well, I am "later in life".
--
Never underestimate the power of a free hat.
-Eric Cartman (South Park)
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Rev Turd Fredericks wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 09:06:20 -0500, FrozenNorth wrote:
LOL. And by the way, you spelled favorite wrong :-)
Dude, that's the Canadian spelling!
yc
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On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 05:33:58 -0800, yellowcake wrote:
Rev Turd Fredericks wrote:
Dude, that's the Canadian spelling!
Dude, I know that, I'm Canadian remember?
--
Never underestimate the power of a free hat.
-Eric Cartman (South Park)
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