|
I have a question regarding social security for you legal types:
I am an independent contractor. I am therefore responsible for
witholding -saving- the money to pay my own taxes, including my
contribution to the social security fund. As an individual in the
range of 30-40 years old, I am unconcvinced that there will be any
money left in Social Security when I become old enough to actually
collect it.
I understand that the money I contribute --supposedly-- goes to
today's elderly but I believe I am capable of successfully
distributing any of my own money to anyone I deem fit to give it to.
I am aware of what a slush fund it has become for congress. AND, I do
not remember ever signing a contract or agreement that binds me to
give a certain percentage of my income to the government for the
purpose of caring for myself or others in our old age. Therefore, in
my opinion, my contribution to social security is nothing more than a
forced donation to the government, to do with what it wishes. I do
not like that. I do not want to pay Social Security any more.
I am in a position to refuse to pay social security. Would I have any
support in my civil disobedience, or do you think I would be tossed in
jail, never to be heard from again? Has anyone read or heard about
others who have refused to pay in protest? What kind of trouble am I
looking at if I do so?
Just wondering.
Deb
|
| |
| |
On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 17:22:06 -0700, teacherDeb wrote:
I have a question regarding social security for you legal types:
I am an independent contractor. I am therefore responsible for
witholding -saving- the money to pay my own taxes, including my
contribution to the social security fund. As an individual in the
range of 30-40 years old, I am unconcvinced that there will be any
money left in Social Security when I become old enough to actually
collect it.
I understand that the money I contribute --supposedly-- goes to
today's elderly but I believe I am capable of successfully
distributing any of my own money to anyone I deem fit to give it to.
I am aware of what a slush fund it has become for congress. AND, I do
not remember ever signing a contract or agreement that binds me to
give a certain percentage of my income to the government for the
purpose of caring for myself or others in our old age. Therefore, in
my opinion, my contribution to social security is nothing more than a
forced donation to the government, to do with what it wishes. I do
not like that. I do not want to pay Social Security any more.
I am in a position to refuse to pay social security. Would I have any
support in my civil disobedience, or do you think I would be tossed in
jail, never to be heard from again? Has anyone read or heard about
others who have refused to pay in protest? What kind of trouble am I
looking at if I do so?
Just wondering.
Deb
Deb - IANAL (I am not a lawyer) but:
Well, besides the IRS penalties and interest, you would lose your credit
your ability to live on anything more than $100/month for groceries (if
they feel so nice) and a whole lot more.
Interesting thought, but even if you can't pay, but file, you are likely
better off than if you don't pay or falsify your return, where you could
get actual jail time. Better to pay than to serve time IMHO.
freecode
|
| |
| |
they'll get you for tax evasion. why don't you spend the time and energy
organizing a grassroots effort to convince congressmen to abolish the social
security tax? Or start a web site showing how ridiculous it is.. or write
letters to the editor.. or save the money that you will pay in tax penalties
and put up a billboard telling people your opinions. write letters to
senators, put fliers on people's doors, organize a society, contribute to a
political party that supports your values, etc.
--
Falky
San Diego, Calif.
----------------
Disclaimer: This has been the opinion of a law student, not a lawyer.
Author advises each reader to get the opinion of a legal professional.
This post is not intended to be legal advice.
I have a question regarding social security for you legal types:
I am an independent contractor. I am therefore responsible for
witholding -saving- the money to pay my own taxes, including my
contribution to the social security fund. As an individual in the
range of 30-40 years old, I am unconcvinced that there will be any
money left in Social Security when I become old enough to actually
collect it.
I understand that the money I contribute --supposedly-- goes to
today's elderly but I believe I am capable of successfully
distributing any of my own money to anyone I deem fit to give it to.
I am aware of what a slush fund it has become for congress. AND, I do
not remember ever signing a contract or agreement that binds me to
give a certain percentage of my income to the government for the
purpose of caring for myself or others in our old age. Therefore, in
my opinion, my contribution to social security is nothing more than a
forced donation to the government, to do with what it wishes. I do
not like that. I do not want to pay Social Security any more.
I am in a position to refuse to pay social security. Would I have any
support in my civil disobedience, or do you think I would be tossed in
jail, never to be heard from again? Has anyone read or heard about
others who have refused to pay in protest? What kind of trouble am I
looking at if I do so?
Just wondering.
Deb
|
| |
| |
deb@philologer.net (teacherDeb) wrote in message news:<99ff2f0b.0408291622.2e5639f0@posting.google.com>...
I have a question regarding social security for you legal types:
I am an independent contractor. I am therefore responsible for
witholding -saving- the money to pay my own taxes, including my
contribution to the social security fund. As an individual in the
range of 30-40 years old, I am unconcvinced that there will be any
money left in Social Security when I become old enough to actually
collect it.
I understand that the money I contribute --supposedly-- goes to
today's elderly but I believe I am capable of successfully
distributing any of my own money to anyone I deem fit to give it to.
I am aware of what a slush fund it has become for congress. AND, I do
not remember ever signing a contract or agreement that binds me to
give a certain percentage of my income to the government for the
purpose of caring for myself or others in our old age. Therefore, in
my opinion, my contribution to social security is nothing more than a
forced donation to the government, to do with what it wishes. I do
not like that. I do not want to pay Social Security any more.
I am in a position to refuse to pay social security. Would I have any
support in my civil disobedience, or do you think I would be tossed in
jail, never to be heard from again? Has anyone read or heard about
others who have refused to pay in protest? What kind of trouble am I
looking at if I do so?
Just wondering.
Deb
The "Federal tennis prisons" are the residence of more than a few tax
protesters who have taken similar arguments. You make your bets, you
take your chances.
If you want to be legal about it, go into the ministry. Become
ordained in a denomination that has principles against accepting
government assistance. You may then file, legally and in good
conscience, papers that make you exempt from Social Security taxation
and disqualify you from receiving benefits.
The downside to the above is that your income will be reduced to a
(probably small) fraction of what it was before, because not many
ministers are paid more than a pittance.
--
Not a lawyer,
Chris Green
|
| |
| |
I have a question regarding social security for you legal types:
I am an independent contractor. I am therefore responsible for
witholding -saving- the money to pay my own taxes, including my
contribution to the social security fund. As an individual in the
range of 30-40 years old, I am unconcvinced that there will be any
money left in Social Security when I become old enough to actually
collect it.
I understand that the money I contribute --supposedly-- goes to
today's elderly but I believe I am capable of successfully
distributing any of my own money to anyone I deem fit to give it to.
I am aware of what a slush fund it has become for congress. AND, I do
not remember ever signing a contract or agreement that binds me to
give a certain percentage of my income to the government for the
purpose of caring for myself or others in our old age. Therefore, in
my opinion, my contribution to social security is nothing more than a
forced donation to the government, to do with what it wishes. I do
not like that. I do not want to pay Social Security any more.
I am in a position to refuse to pay social security. Would I have any
support in my civil disobedience, or do you think I would be tossed in
jail, never to be heard from again? Has anyone read or heard about
others who have refused to pay in protest? What kind of trouble am I
looking at if I do so?
Just wondering.
-------------------
It is possible to "opt out" of the Social Security system. I don't know
exactly how you go about it but basically you are never allowed to apply for
Social Security and you don't pay into it.
~AZ~
Deb
|
| |
| |
cj.green@worldnet.att.net (Christopher Green) wrote in message news:<>
The "Federal tennis prisons" are the residence of more than a few tax
protesters who have taken similar arguments. You make your bets, you
take your chances.
If you want to be legal about it, go into the ministry. Become
ordained in a denomination that has principles against accepting
government assistance. You may then file, legally and in good
conscience, papers that make you exempt from Social Security taxation
and disqualify you from receiving benefits.
The downside to the above is that your income will be reduced to a
(probably small) fraction of what it was before, because not many
ministers are paid more than a pittance.
I've never thought of the ministry idea before. I like the whole
grassroots movement idea and have tossed it around with some people
but I mostly get the 'you won't change anything' argument, or the
'just give your due to society and shut up about it' argument. If I
can land myself in a federal tennis prison, maybe I can write a book
about it. All I have to do is blame or include sludge against one of
the two presidential candidates and it should sell a million. I'm
working on titles now - what do you think of "John Kerry is an old fat
mean lying white guy who steals pensions from old ladies'? Or "Hail
to the THIEF: How George Bush is robbing you of your golden years" ?
|
| |
| |
teacherDeb wrote in message
<99ff2f0b.0408291622.2e5639f0@posting.google.com>...
I have a question regarding social security for you legal types:
I am an independent contractor. I am therefore responsible for
witholding -saving- the money to pay my own taxes, including my
contribution to the social security fund. As an individual in the
range of 30-40 years old, I am unconcvinced that there will be any
money left in Social Security when I become old enough to actually
collect it.
I understand that the money I contribute --supposedly-- goes to
today's elderly but I believe I am capable of successfully
distributing any of my own money to anyone I deem fit to give it to.
I am aware of what a slush fund it has become for congress. AND, I do
not remember ever signing a contract or agreement that binds me to
give a certain percentage of my income to the government for the
purpose of caring for myself or others in our old age. Therefore, in
my opinion, my contribution to social security is nothing more than a
forced donation to the government, to do with what it wishes. I do
not like that. I do not want to pay Social Security any more.
.. . .(snip),. . .
Deb
Social Security tax is an income tax, just like any other income tax.
Congress in its infinite wisdom allocates a portion of all Federal Tax
Revenues to fund a social welfare system which folks call "Social Security".
It's not an insurance program or a pension plan or whatever folks normally
think of it; it's just a social welfare system funded out of Federal tax
revenues.
It has complicated rules and such which make it look like a
pension/insurance plan, but it's not.
http://www.ssa.gov/history/supreme1.html
". . . ., the High Courts justices confirmed this point even more
emphatically. In the body of its Helvering ruling, the Supreme Court stated:
'The proceeds of both taxes are to be paid into the Treasury like
internal-revenue taxes generally, and are not earmarked in any way.', , ,"
It would be nice to opt out of paying my Federal Income Tax. I could do one
heck of a job funding my retirement that way, but it's not an option.
Some folks in some industries once had an exclusion given them by Congress,
(postal workers and railroad employees?) . That's a political thing,
however. I don't know if the exclusions are still active.
Regards
Old Al (A retired engineer whose high school teacher used the FICA court
decisions quite a bit in Civics class)
|
| |
| |
"oldal4865" <oldal4865@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<2ph7heFkr815U1@uni-berlin.de>...
teacherDeb wrote in message
<99ff2f0b.0408291622.2e5639f0@posting.google.com>...
Deb
Social Security tax is an income tax, just like any other income tax.
Congress in its infinite wisdom allocates a portion of all Federal Tax
Revenues to fund a social welfare system which folks call "Social Security".
It's not an insurance program or a pension plan or whatever folks normally
think of it; it's just a social welfare system funded out of Federal tax
revenues.
It has complicated rules and such which make it look like a
pension/insurance plan, but it's not.
http://www.ssa.gov/history/supreme1.html
". . . ., the High Court?s justices confirmed this point even more
emphatically. In the body of its Helvering ruling, the Supreme Court stated:
'The proceeds of both taxes are to be paid into the Treasury like
internal-revenue taxes generally, and are not earmarked in any way.', , ,"
It would be nice to opt out of paying my Federal Income Tax. I could do one
heck of a job funding my retirement that way, but it's not an option.
Some folks in some industries once had an exclusion given them by Congress,
(postal workers and railroad employees?) . That's a political thing,
however. I don't know if the exclusions are still active.
Regards
Old Al (A retired engineer whose high school teacher used the FICA court
decisions quite a bit in Civics class)
Old Al and others -
I appreciate the links to info on Social Security. I do understand
that there is no magical "fund" out there that goes specifically to
social security, even though politicians refer to it that way, but I
am still unhappy - even more unhappy having read the links you posted
- about how open-ended it all is. I mean, the fact that SS was last
challenged as a legal tax in 1937 is bad enough. If I am already
paying income tax -and yes, I do believe in paying a reasonable amount
of that tax - then why pretend SS is anything different? Because we
pretend I'll get someting out of it again? Does pointing out that SS
is just another form of income tax really make it any more fair? But,
I know, *death and taxes* and all that.
Al - I do like this line in the link you posted, that justifies the
whole thing:
"But the ill is all one or at least not greatly different whether men
are thrown out of work because there is no longer work to do or
because the disabilities of age make them incapable of doing it.
Rescue becomes necessary irrespective of the cause. The hope behind
this statute is to save men and women from the rigors of the poor
house as well as from the haunting fear that such a lot awaits them
when journey's end is near."
I hope there is rescue waiting for me when my journey's end is near.
Deb
|
| |
| |
teacherDeb wrote in message
<99ff2f0b.0408301544.29231d61@posting.google.com>...
"oldal4865" <oldal4865@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<2ph7heFkr815U1@uni-berlin.de>...
Social Security tax is an income tax, just like any other income tax.
Congress in its infinite wisdom allocates a portion of all Federal Tax
Revenues to fund a social welfare system which folks call "Social
Security".
It's not an insurance program or a pension plan or whatever folks
normally
think of it; it's just a social welfare system funded out of Federal tax
revenues.
. . .(snip). .
Old Al and others -
I appreciate the links to info . . .(snip). . .
yes, I do believe in paying a reasonable amount
of that tax - then why pretend SS is anything different?
. . .(snip). . .
I hope there is rescue waiting for me when my journey's end is near.
Deb
All the politicians and lawyers know exactly what Social Security is.
However, politicians have found it necessary/desirable to manipulate the
public in all matters since the beginning of time so the Social Security
issue is nothing new. Annoying, frustrating, but not surprising.
All developed countries have some sort of social welfare system designed to
provide some form of income support for the disabled and retired. The U.S.
system is severely flawed when compared to others, but IMO, the National
Will is changing in this area. I have no idea how it will turn out
(Greenspan calling for reduced benefits for boomers) but eventually it will
be rationalized. I fear that the tax load will be somewhat stunning
though.
Regards
Old Al
|
| |
| |
teacherDeb wrote:
I have a question regarding social security for you legal types:
It's a Ponzi scheme but since the government runs it they can get away
with it.
I am an independent contractor. I am therefore responsible for
witholding -saving- the money to pay my own taxes, including my
contribution to the social security fund. As an individual in the
range of 30-40 years old, I am unconcvinced that there will be any
money left in Social Security when I become old enough to actually
collect it.
There are ways to fix the problem on how to pay for a national pension
system - see Robert A. Heinlein's "We the Living" for one such idea -
but such ideas would be extremely unpopular with those who would lose
their lucrative government-sanctioned, government-insured scheme as well.
I understand that the money I contribute --supposedly-- goes to
today's elderly but I believe I am capable of successfully
distributing any of my own money to anyone I deem fit to give it to.
I'm sure you can manage your own money better than the government can;
unfortunately they disagree with you. They also have more guns and ammo
than you have. And if you think you might decide to get enough to fight
them off, well, you can see what they did at Waco.
I am aware of what a slush fund it has become for congress. AND, I do
not remember ever signing a contract or agreement that binds me to
give a certain percentage of my income to the government for the
purpose of caring for myself or others in our old age.
"Taxes are not collected for the benefit of the taxed." - Lazarus Long
in Robert A. Heinlein's "Time Enough For Love."
Doesn't matter whether you agreed to it or not, it's a government-issued
tax. If you try to fight it in court, the courts will dismiss you and
say it's a political issue, go to your congressman; and your
congresscritter will say it's an issue to settle in court.
As one guy put it about people who try to publicly protest over taxes,
or raise issues if they get tried, it doesn't matter if your argument
was 100% accurate and exactly right, no judge is going to be the one to
declare any government tax that is necessary for the system to continue
to be unconstitutional or do anything that would threaten continued
collections.
No judge is going to want to be the one that causes the whole government
swindle to come crashing down on his head. The appeals court would
overrule the judge anyway, Congress would impeach him and he'd be back
chasing ambulances, with the IRS now TCMP auditing him every year forever.
You're stuck for it unless you figure a way to get around it by some
legal means of avoidance or quietly ignoring the law and taking your
chances.
Therefore, in my opinion, my contribution to social security is
nothing more than a forced donation to the government, to do with
what it wishes.
Uh, you mean you finally figured that out, eh? I knew that 20 years
ago. Didn't mean I had any way to stop contributing.
I do not like that. I do not want to pay Social Security any more.
Stop working.
I am in a position to refuse to pay social security. Would I have any
support in my civil disobedience, or do you think I would be tossed in
jail, never to be heard from again?
With the attempts to enact Patriot II don't be surprised if they tried
to claim your act was a terrorist plot allowing them to strip you of
your citizenship and deport you.
If you want to commit an act of civil disobedience, just keep your mouth
shut about it. Go advertising what you're doing and you paint a big
target on your shirt for a fast-track to Alcatraz.
Has anyone read or heard about others who have refused to pay in protest?
Yeah, when they go on trial. The ones that try to make some sort of
argument against the system not only get their asses handed to them on a
platter, they get hit for bigger fines for wasting the court's time
raising constitutional issues when they're supposed to just pay up and
shut up. As I said, it doesn't matter what their arguments are against
any form of taxation on people's incomes, the courts have heard all of
them before and have rejected every one no matter how it was raised.
What kind of trouble am I looking at if I do so?
Back taxes, penalties and interest. Possible confiscation of your
property if you don't pay, and, potentially if they decide to come after
you, criminal prosecution (but unless you're a high-profile case, owed a
lot of money and thus can be used as a poster boy, or a tax protester
(and thus can be used as a poster boy) the chances of that are low.)
How much money are you making? Remember the IRS doesn't have unlimited
funds to check out everyone, and they've cut the number of people doing
investigations. If you don't publicly announce yourself (like these tax
protesters do), don't draw attention to what you're doing and don't make
a lot of money you can probably get away with it. But you take a risk
if you do. I've heard the figures are that at one time they generally
weren't even bothering with people making 20K a year or less because
there was nothing significant worth seizing.
You may want to look into, if you make medium amounts, of restructuring
how you do business in order to reduce your income that is attributable
to you, make more of your expenses tax deductible, and change how you
collect what you make so it becomes either something taxed at a lower
rate or possibly not taxed. A good tax lawyer may know loopholes you
can use.
Some people use multiple corporate entities to move money around. Some
might do things with the tax laws to restructure some items so that
legally they are not income.
Some suggestions I've heard are that above a certain threshhold you need
to go either corporate or LLC. There are other options available as
well depending on how much money you're going to make each year.
Stay quiet and unobtrusive and you can get away with a lot of things.
Make noise and they will notice you. Even if you get tagged and
everything you're doing is 100% legal it's a big hassle. And beyond
which, the IRS will usually take the opinion that if there is a gray
area it's illegal unless the Supreme Court has said otherwise and
sometimes even then they will claim you owe back taxes, penalties and
interest.
|
| |
| |
Christopher Green wrote:
If you want to be legal about it, go into the ministry. Become
ordained in a denomination that has principles against accepting
government assistance. You may then file, legally and in good
conscience, papers that make you exempt from Social Security taxation
and disqualify you from receiving benefits.
I wish I had remembered that one.
The downside to the above is that your income will be reduced to a
(probably small) fraction of what it was before, because not many
ministers are paid more than a pittance.
I wouldn't call as much as $60,000 a year 'a pittance' which is what
I've heard some ministers in very successful churches make. You think
Billy Graham makes 'a pittance'?
|
| |
| |
deb@philologer.net (teacherDeb) wrote in message news:<99ff2f0b.0408291622.2e5639f0@posting.google.com>...
I have a question regarding social security for you legal types:
I am an independent contractor. I am therefore responsible for
witholding -saving- the money to pay my own taxes, including my
contribution to the social security fund. As an individual in the
range of 30-40 years old, I am unconcvinced that there will be any
money left in Social Security when I become old enough to actually
collect it.
I understand that the money I contribute --supposedly-- goes to
today's elderly but I believe I am capable of successfully
distributing any of my own money to anyone I deem fit to give it to.
I am aware of what a slush fund it has become for congress. AND, I do
not remember ever signing a contract or agreement that binds me to
give a certain percentage of my income to the government for the
purpose of caring for myself or others in our old age. Therefore, in
my opinion, my contribution to social security is nothing more than a
forced donation to the government, to do with what it wishes. I do
not like that. I do not want to pay Social Security any more.
I am in a position to refuse to pay social security. Would I have any
support in my civil disobedience, or do you think I would be tossed in
jail, never to be heard from again? Has anyone read or heard about
others who have refused to pay in protest? What kind of trouble am I
looking at if I do so?
I love tax kooks. Not that you are one, but you could be going down
that path if you're not careful. To answer your question, our federal
prisons are filled with tax kooks. I don't know what your specific
intentions are, but if you violate our tax code, you could be
prosecuted for tax evasion and imprisoned.
I do understand your "moral" and philosophical objections to the
concept of taxation and/or mandatory contributions to SS. However, we
live in a democratic republic in which the people's voices are
manifested through the votes of our elected representatives, in
Washington. And those elected representatives, Congress and the
President, have democratically passed a mandatory tax code. If you
want it abolished, convince Congress and ultimately the people to
abolish it.
|
| |
| |
|
