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IanAl wrote:
Howcome banks dish out 20 notes then?
Because all current Bank of England notes are legal
tender. The older style 20 note, featuring Michael
Faraday, was withdrawn from circulation in February 2001.
That was 2001. I was referring to 2003, or it may have been 2002, when
combating fraudulent 20 notes was all the rage.
Are you saying that Tom Moore doesn't know what he's talking about?
<g>
BTW I'm surprised at this bit:
"The current series of Bank of England notes are legal
tender in England and Wales, although not in Scotland
or Northern Ireland, where the only currency carrying
legal tender status for unlimited amounts is the one
pound and two pound coins."
Very funny: click this
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/legaltender.htm
Where you will read, exactly the passage you took the piss out of,
thinking I was its author.
The current series of Bank of England notes are legal tender in England
and Wales, although not in Scotland or Northern Ireland, where the only
currency carrying legal tender status for unlimited amounts is the one
pound and two pound coins.
Why not accuse the Bank of England of being mad?
So you can turn up with a sackful of pound
coins to pay for a car or house.
I do not know Scots law as well as English (or at all really). The
offer of legal tender extinquishes a debt. Presumably if the Scots
vendor knows you intend to pay for a house with a few sacks of coins,
s/he will decline the sale.
In England & Wales, before the debt exists, no obligation to sell
exists, and hence no obligation to accept legal legal can, at that
time, exist.
But why not continue being rude to me? After all, as the German
military put it so well in 1945/6, "we were only obeying orders."
--
Tom Moore
http://www.tom-moore.com
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Just out of curiousity: does anyone ever have any problem using Scots banknotes
in England & Wales or vice versa? Also, if someone DID refuse your banknotes
because they are not legal tender, couldn't you go to the bank and trade them
for local banknotes?
*****
Tim Horrigan <horrigan@aol.com>
*****
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On 06 Sep 2004 00:34:00 GMT, horrigan@aol.com (Horrigan) wrote:
Just out of curiousity: does anyone ever have any problem using Scots banknotes
in England & Wales or vice versa? Also, if someone DID refuse your banknotes
because they are not legal tender, couldn't you go to the bank and trade them
for local banknotes?
One-pound notes still circulate in Scotland, but are not accepted in
England. Other Scots banknotes will get the occasional dirty look from
an English shopkeeper, but are accepted.
(Most Scots banknotes are actually backed by the Bank of England, but
printed by the three Scots banks that have a franchise to do so. These
banks are still allowed to print a token amount of notes that are
backed by their own assets.)
Scots law is more than a little different from English law, and one of
the ways it is different is in the concept of legal tender (which, so
I've been told, doesn't exist in Scotland).
--
Chris Green
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"The current series of Bank of England notes are legal
tender in England and Wales, although not in Scotland
or Northern Ireland, where the only currency carrying
legal tender status for unlimited amounts is the one
pound and two pound coins."
An earlier posting seems to have gone astray. The question really is:
in an era when cheques, credit and debit cards account for most
transactions, does the definition of "legal tender" matter, unless
it's to harass?
And in fact "legal tender" today simply begs the question: "can you
pay your taxes with this money".
In real life, you can change regional notes freely at the English
branch (or owning bank) of the Scottish or NI bank that issued them.
Channel Islands currency is a special case.
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Sufaud wrote:
The question really is: in an era when cheques,
credit and debit cards account for most transactions,
does the definition of "legal tender" matter, unless
it's to harass?
Cheques and plastic are legal tender in certain circumstances, but you
ask the right question all the same.
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Legal_tender
Is a reasonable start.
And in fact "legal tender" today simply begs the
question: "can you pay your taxes with this money".
No, the offer of legal tender, extinguishes a civil debt. H M
government can decline legal tender: they make up their own rules.
In real life, you can change regional notes freely
at the English branch (or owning bank) of the Scottish
or NI bank that issued them.
All sterling linked currency must by law be credited at face value into
your UK bank account.
Channel Islands currency
is a special case.
No that's linked to sterling, and will be credited into your UK bank
account at face value. Then you can withdraw the same amount in legal
tender.
Given this, the question must be why sterling linked currency is
refused. I could tell you, but sorry, it is more than my job's worth.
--
Tom Moore
http://www.tom-moore.com
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"Tom Moore" <mothersandfamiliesfornukingolgamaitland@fatchance.gov> wrote in message news:<xn0dnhdq1j4n5c00d@localhost>...
No, the offer of legal tender, extinguishes a civil debt. H M
government can decline legal tender: they make up their own rules.
That's too theoretical and legalistic. If we are talking of cash
transactions, you can't force a shopkeeper to sell to you for
banknotes s/he doesn't want to accept, "legal tender" or not: there is
no "debt" yet. Of course, as in Zimbabwe, the law may be different,
and may force the shopkeeper into insolvency, accepting worthless
paper.
All sterling linked currency must by law be credited at face value into
your UK bank account.
Not quite true, but we may be nit-picking over the term "Sterling
linked currency". There used to be currency-board currency (mostly in
the Colonies), and probably there were British Forces notes (I have
samples of US military payment certificates, and I assume the British
had the same thing during the Occupation). Scottish banknotes tend to
sell at a discount (by comparison with English ones) overseas. Mostly
because of the nuisance value; otherwise they would have to be bundled
and shipped off to the UK.
Channel Islands currency
is a special case.
I meant, in terms that it is not issued by a bank that has branches in
the City, but by the Bailiwick treasury (or some such), as I recall.
No that's linked to sterling, and will be credited into your UK bank
account at face value. Then you can withdraw the same amount in legal
tender.
Given this, the question must be why sterling linked currency is
refused. I could tell you, but sorry, it is more than my job's worth.
Nobody is going to accept a banknote s/he has never seen before, and
cannot verify as being genuine. Funnily enough, some of the most
counterfeit-proof currency in the world is rubbish inconvertible
money. However impressive a banknote issued by the Left Bank of the
Severn may be, if you haven't seen one before, no law on "legal
tender" is going to make you change your mind. I think it is far
easier to spend euros in Northern Ireland than Gibraltar or Channel
Islands, or even Scottish money.
Anyway, as I said, and as you agreed, the issue is largely moot. I
would rather spend my time trying to figure out which debit or credit
card fleeces me the least on currency exchange. Amex used to load the
conversion with 1/2 of 1%. Then it was 1%. Now I see it's 2.73%.
That's the best reason I can think of for switching to the euro.
Now I'm going to read a book I used in economics class 40 years ago:
"Monetary Policy Under the International Gold Standard 1880-1914" by
Arthur I. Bloomfield, published in 1959 by the Federal Reserve Bank of
New York.
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Sufaud wrote:
This is the classic example given in economics textbooks: people
will accept a given currency if they can pay their taxes with it.
Governments of the former Warsaw Pact used to refuse their own
currencies, from foreigners, in favour of their western funds. If you
went to East Berlin to learn German, you had to pay using German Marks,
not the DDR Mark. (Deutschmark is an English word, which translates to
D-Mark, Mark or formerly die Deutsche Mark)
Think of Cuba, where Cuban currency
will not buy you much, but you can
pay your taxes with it.
I bet Fidel does not accept sales tax revenues from foreigner hotels in
his own currency.
If we are talking of cash transactions, you
can't force a shopkeeper to sell to you for
banknotes s/he doesn't want to accept, "legal
tender" or not: there is no "debt" yet.
This means the issue is never challenged properly, and the position
never made clear. Thus the legal tender myth is perpetuated.
Amex used to load the conversion with 1/2 of 1%.
Then it was 1%. Now I see it's 2.73%. That's the
best reason I can think of for switching to the euro.
American excuse anyone?
--
Tom Moore
http://www.tom-moore.com
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x-no-archive: yes
they may work in vending machines, though not legal tender afaik..
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sufaud@hotmail.com (Sufaud) wrote in message news:<766fc3.0409200235.6d71e193@posting.google.com>...
"Tom Moore" <mothersandfamiliesfornukingolgamaitland@fatchance.gov> wrote in message news:<xn0dnhdq1j4n5c00d@localhost>...
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"Tom Moore" <mothersandfamiliesfornukingolgamaitland@fatchance.gov> wrote in message news:<xn0dnhrj82z0kp001@localhost>...
Sufaud wrote:
Governments of the former Warsaw Pact used to refuse their own
currencies, from foreigners, in favour of their western funds. If you
went to East Berlin to learn German, you had to pay using German Marks,
not the DDR Mark. (Deutschmark is an English word, which translates to
D-Mark, Mark or formerly die Deutsche Mark)
Not exactly true. Most Communist countries, and most currency-control
countries (including Britain when I was a student here in 1970 and a
diplomat in 1977) have "convertible" Rubles, or Dinars, or Pounds etc.
OK, it didn't much matter with pounds since if you could smuggle the
banknotes to Switzerland they could be exchanged for anything. But
with Algerian dinars or Russian rubles and other currencies where the
banknotes were essentially worthless abroad it meant that you could
freely exchange them for foreign currency, and pay local hard-currency
debts (and buy air tickets, pay foreigners' taxes, etc.) with that
local currency. Convertible renmimbi yuan were issued as a special
banknote; the others (such as French francs) could be issued as
convertible travellers' cheques, but never as cash. If, for example,
you wanted to buy an air or a boat ticket with Egyptian pounds in
cash, you also needed a bank receipt to show you'd bought them with
hard currency.
But you keep raising red herrings, which is OK except that while it's
the truth, it's not the whole truth...
I have a drawerful of Belarusian rubles. Trouble is, they were
demonetised on Jan. 1, 2001.
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sufaud@hotmail.com (Sufaud) wrote in message news:<766fc3.0409200235.6d71e193@posting.google.com>...
I think it is far
easier to spend euros in Northern Ireland than Gibraltar or Channel
Islands, or even Scottish money.
Nonsense.
We have a steady flow of spaniards who expect to spend nothing apart
from their currency, most shops and bars used to take pesetas and
to be fair the bars in La Linea would take Gibraltar notes on the
basis that they could exchange them at no cost on the next shopping
trip.
Locally the banks decided not to accept 100 euro and above notes
however they can easily be banked with a 20 min walk across the
frontier so Barclays loss is banesto's gain and the queue is
shorter.
AND Gibraltar notes and coins should be accepted by UK banks
because they are sterling.
--
Jim Watt
www.gibnet.com
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Sufaud wrote:
But you keep raising red herrings, which is OK except
that while it's the truth, it's not the whole truth...
True.
I gather the Green Back is worth more in Moscow than our pounds. They
do not recognise UK currency.
Isn't it strange that this happens to money, but not educational
qualifications? I see Her Majesty's Government have started printing
'O' level equivalent GCSEs, 'A' levels and University Degrees as if
they we all going out of fashion, but not one of them has lost any
value.
In fact, if we suggest otherwise, we're insulting the students who have
worked so hard to get their 5 grade A GCE 'A' levels.
Convertible DDR GCE 'A' levels that is.
--
Tom Moore
http://www.tom-moore.com
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Jim Watt wrote:
AND Gibraltar notes and coins should be accepted
by UK banks because they are sterling.
They are.
The problems is it is difficult to get them accepted by traders in
England. The traders can take them to their banks without problems,
but it's difficult to use them as change. The English are too pompous.
--
Tom Moore
http://www.tom-moore.com
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"Tom Moore" <mothersandfamiliesfornukingolgamaitland@fatchance.gov> wrote in message news:<xn0dni5yr1hmva001@localhost>...
Jim Watt wrote:
They are.
The problems is it is difficult to get them accepted by traders in
England. The traders can take them to their banks without problems,
but it's difficult to use them as change. The English are too pompous.
One can understant a certain caution, a bus driver nearly threw me off
for offering a Gib 50p The underground system is more forgiving.
--
Jim Watt
www.gibnet.com
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Jim Watt wrote:
One can understand a certain caution, a bus driver
nearly threw me off for offering a Gib 50p
The job's worths in the cash office whinge if you include non-English
sterling linked currency with your takings. The trick is to keep the
non-English stuff separate, maintain a large float, and get to the Bank
when there's no queue.
Alternatively, make a big deal about being a reasonable person, that
you will accept Gib dosh, then call in at the next bank, leaving all
the passengers to wait for the bank clerk to deal with you. That's one
step up from changing a 10 note with 10p coins, because "that's all
I've got." Course it is.
--
Tom Moore
http://www.tom-moore.com
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jimwatt@talk21.com (Jim Watt) wrote in message news:<cecbbf66.0409201208.6369a9f9@posting.google.com>...
Locally the banks decided not to accept 100 euro and above notes
however they can easily be banked with a 20 min walk across the
frontier so Barclays loss is banesto's gain and the queue is
shorter.
Not every country in the euro-zone issues notes above 100-euros. I
recall that in those countries it may not be possible to pass the
notes except at a bank.
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