|
I know of a person who I will refer to as John Doe who has never been
involved in any type of criminal activity in his life. A year ago, John Doe
had several tens of thousands of dollars in his bank account before he was
falsely accused of a felony crime and sentenced to 10 years of probation.
He drained his account on legal fees yet he was sentenced to the very
maximum allowed by law.
Conditions to John Doe's probation are that he make monthly payments to the
probation office and pay thousands of dollars in court fees. Sadly, John
Doe has failed to meet any of the requirements for probation and it is
obvious that John will not pay a single cent. John would like to know if it
is possible for him to renounce his citizenship and leave the US, never to
return, in lieu of probation. He understands that 'once on probation,
always on probation' and does not wish to go that unfortunate route.
Because of this, he was unable to pay his taxes this year est. $20-25K.
Additionally, he will no longer be able to work at his profession where he
earned between $70-110K per year. Sadly, there is absolutely no recovery
for John Doe.
Would a judge be willing to accept such ex patriot terms?
Thank you in advance for helping my dearest friend, John Doe.
|
| |
| |
Thank you Dave. Theoretically speaking of course, what are your thoughts if
John Doe knew someone in a foreign country (gov't office) who had agreed to
issue the necessary paperwork for birth certificate/citizenship, etc. under
an assumed name? What if no communication (phone, internet, or otherwise)
back to the U.S. was his objective. There would never be a link.
John is an honest, good natured workaholic kind of guy with an excellent
work history and references. He has made it very clear to the probation
department that he will never, and he means NEVER pay a single penny to them
since he is not capable of working for slave wages due to his new record.
He has told officers that they'd better imprison him because there is
absolutely no way that he can be a successful probationer.
This country faces enough burdens. John feels that if he remains, his
health will suffer and he will begin collapsing, thus requiring frequent
hospitalization in the many years to come. He also feels that if he stays,
his reasoning will become clouded. This may lead into a situation where
leveraging off his good looks, he may impregnate several women, regardless
of how they look and he will not be able to support them and it will be up
to the system to do so. Of course, he does not want to do this but it may
be something that is beyond his control.
Personally, I would not like to see John go through such difficulties at the
expense of U.S. citizens when he can become a productive member of a new
society.
Your friend will face some difficult times. A judge will not accept the
idea that fleeing the country is "paying his debt to society". Many
countries do not admit felons. Many countries have extradition treaties.
If
your friend does this he will probably be sentenced to prison in absentia.
His tax problems will also be dealt with in absentia. Should he ever face
a
legal problem in his new homeland his past will haunt him.
Dave M.
|
| |
| |
"John Doe" <none@none.net> wrote in message news:<haM%c.2457$ug2.996@fe2.texas.rr.com>...
I know of a person who I will refer to as John Doe who has never been
involved in any type of criminal activity in his life. A year ago, John Doe
had several tens of thousands of dollars in his bank account before he was
falsely accused of a felony crime and sentenced to 10 years of probation.
He drained his account on legal fees yet he was sentenced to the very
maximum allowed by law.
Conditions to John Doe's probation are that he make monthly payments to the
probation office and pay thousands of dollars in court fees. Sadly, John
Doe has failed to meet any of the requirements for probation and it is
obvious that John will not pay a single cent. John would like to know if it
is possible for him to renounce his citizenship and leave the US, never to
return, in lieu of probation. He understands that 'once on probation,
always on probation' and does not wish to go that unfortunate route.
Because of this, he was unable to pay his taxes this year est. $20-25K.
Additionally, he will no longer be able to work at his profession where he
earned between $70-110K per year. Sadly, there is absolutely no recovery
for John Doe.
Would a judge be willing to accept such ex patriot terms?
Thank you in advance for helping my dearest friend, John Doe.
What crime was he accused of?
-Lee.
|
| |
| |
He had asked me not to provide detail, but if it were something serious, he
would have spent some time in prison.
What crime was he accused of?
-Lee.
|
| |
| |
I live in a poor border town with much drug traffic and many young
people get caught up in transporting drug because of quick profit.
Some get in alot of trouble. Friends and relatives have sons and
husbands who flee across border when they find that police looking for
them and never return back. It is very sad for family members because
they must never return. Some family go visit but they are careful of
never being followed. These people face many prison years. You face
only probation and I recomend that you stay and do probation then
leave later so you can always visit family later. Sorry for my poor
English.
|
| |
| |
"John Doe" <none@none.net> wrote in message news:<haM%c.2457$ug2.996@fe2.texas.rr.com>...
I know of a person who I will refer to as John Doe who has never been
It's John Doa. (From dead on arrival, though since film executives have
been getting it wrong for 20 years, I can understand how nobody these
days is aware. It's the name police used to call a dead man that they
had not yet identified.)
involved in any type of criminal activity in his life. A year ago, John Doe
had several tens of thousands of dollars in his bank account before he was
falsely accused of a felony crime and sentenced to 10 years of probation.
He drained his account on legal fees yet he was sentenced to the very
maximum allowed by law.
Conditions to John Doe's probation are that he make monthly payments to the
probation office and pay thousands of dollars in court fees. Sadly, John
Doe has failed to meet any of the requirements for probation and it is
obvious that John will not pay a single cent. John would like to know if it
is possible for him to renounce his citizenship and leave the US, never to
return, in lieu of probation. He understands that 'once on probation,
always on probation' and does not wish to go that unfortunate route.
Because of this, he was unable to pay his taxes this year est. $20-25K.
Additionally, he will no longer be able to work at his profession where he
earned between $70-110K per year. Sadly, there is absolutely no recovery
for John Doe.
Would a judge be willing to accept such ex patriot terms?
Thank you in advance for helping my dearest friend, John Doe.
|
| |
| |
John,
I agree with the idea of creating a new identity but think that your
friend would be always under the thumb of the person in this foreign
government. It might be better to make a new identity in his native country
using existing criminal networks rather than government friends. From what
you write though it sounds as if your friend may already have warrants out
for his arrest and so he does not have the time to do a good job of creating
a new identity. Perhaps he should buy an interim identity while he puts
together the money and plans for a good identity.
I think the foreign country idea is stupid since your friend would need
to pass as a native in a country where he does not know the history,
customs, or language. Far better to just change identity and live in a big
city as one of the faceless crowd in his native country.
Dave M.
|
| |
| |
"John Doe" <none@none.net> wrote in message
news:<haM%c.2457$ug2.996@fe2.texas.rr.com>...
I know of a person who I will refer to as John Doe who has never been
involved in any type of criminal activity in his life. A year ago, John
Doe
had several tens of thousands of dollars in his bank account before he
was
falsely accused of a felony crime and sentenced to 10 years of
probation.
He drained his account on legal fees yet he was sentenced to the very
maximum allowed by law.
Conditions to John Doe's probation are that he make monthly payments to
the
probation office and pay thousands of dollars in court fees. Sadly,
John
Doe has failed to meet any of the requirements for probation and it is
obvious that John will not pay a single cent. John would like to know
if it
is possible for him to renounce his citizenship and leave the US, never
to
return, in lieu of probation. He understands that 'once on probation,
always on probation' and does not wish to go that unfortunate route.
Because of this, he was unable to pay his taxes this year est. $20-25K.
Additionally, he will no longer be able to work at his profession where
he
earned between $70-110K per year. Sadly, there is absolutely no
recovery
for John Doe.
Would a judge be willing to accept such ex patriot terms?
Thank you in advance for helping my dearest friend, John Doe.
John has a few misconceptions. It probably varies state by state, but in
California, it costs too much money to keep them in the system for longer
than 5 years. My little brother is a Parole Agent, and he said that if the
guy doesn't re-offend, in 5 years, His case would be submitted for discharge
due to age, and it would fall out of the active system naturally. However,
if he so much as runs a red light while waiting, he's nailed to the wall for
everything.
|
| |
| |
news:<haM%c.2457$ug2.996@fe2.texas.rr.com>...
I know of a person who I will refer to as John Doe who has never been
involved in any type of criminal activity in his life. A year ago,
John
Doe
had several tens of thousands of dollars in his bank account before he
was
falsely accused of a felony crime and sentenced to 10 years of
probation.
He drained his account on legal fees yet he was sentenced to the very
maximum allowed by law.
Conditions to John Doe's probation are that he make monthly payments to
the
probation office and pay thousands of dollars in court fees. Sadly,
John
Doe has failed to meet any of the requirements for probation and it is
obvious that John will not pay a single cent. John would like to know
if it
is possible for him to renounce his citizenship and leave the US, never
to
return, in lieu of probation. He understands that 'once on probation,
always on probation' and does not wish to go that unfortunate route.
Because of this, he was unable to pay his taxes this year est. $20-25K.
Additionally, he will no longer be able to work at his profession where
he
earned between $70-110K per year. Sadly, there is absolutely no
recovery
for John Doe.
Would a judge be willing to accept such ex patriot terms?
Thank you in advance for helping my dearest friend, John Doe.
John has a few misconceptions. It probably varies state by state, but in
California, it costs too much money to keep them in the system for longer
than 5 years. My little brother is a Parole Agent, and he said that if the
guy doesn't re-offend, in 5 years, His case would be submitted for
discharge
due to age, and it would fall out of the active system naturally. However,
if he so much as runs a red light while waiting, he's nailed to the wall
for
everything.
John lives in a state having a high number of prisoners, long sentences, all
supported through very high tax rates. He feels certain that your brother's
advice would not apply case here but he does thank him for his comments.
Does John have other misconceptions that should be addressed? I personally
wish that John forget about his plan to renounce his citizenship but he
insists that his condition is beyond repair. He says that things will never
be the same as they were a year ago unless his request is granted by the
judge.
Of course, this is all fictitious and theoretical in nature.
|
| |
| |
Ian wrote:
It's John Doa. (From dead on arrival, though since film
executives have been getting it wrong for 20 years, I can understand how
nobody these days is aware. It's the name police used to call a dead man
that they had not yet identified.)
Then who is Jane Roe?
|
| |
| |
John,
I agree with the idea of creating a new identity but think that your
friend would be always under the thumb of the person in this foreign
government. It might be better to make a new identity in his native
country
using existing criminal networks rather than government friends. From what
you write though it sounds as if your friend may already have warrants out
for his arrest and so he does not have the time to do a good job of
creating
a new identity. Perhaps he should buy an interim identity while he puts
together the money and plans for a good identity.
I think the foreign country idea is stupid since your friend would need
to pass as a native in a country where he does not know the history,
customs, or language. Far better to just change identity and live in a big
city as one of the faceless crowd in his native country.
Dave M.
Thank you for your comments Dave. I agree with you that my friend would be
under some type of obligation which could be used against him at any time.
I tend to disagree that my friend should make a new identity for himself in
his native country since the act of doing so would be considered illegal and
he would eventually end up getting caught living within his native country.
I know my friend and he would never attempt something illegal like this.
Although I am not sure, I have a feeling that my friend knows much of the
history, customs, and the language of the foreign country. He has no
children yet the most serious concern for my friend are his other family
members and how they will feel if he is granted his request to leave.
Of course, this is all fictitious and theoretical in nature.
|
| |
| |
John,
Of course we're all being hypothetical here but in this strange world
that you have concocted your friend is indeed involved in a number of
illegal and criminal acts. And of course he is a convicted felon. To argue
therefore that "he would never attempt something illegal like this" seems
unlikely. I'm not sure if a judge could accept the deal that you propose but
feel certain that no judge would. Thus unlawful flight is the real proposal
that is on the table. Should your friend choose this he should forget his
family and never see them again. Even in bad spy novels it is understood
that it is difficult to pass oneself off as a native. I really can't offer
better advice than I already have.
Dave M.
|
| |
| |
This is indeed a strange hypothetical scenario.
Mr. Doe has already presented his expat request to the probation department,
making it very clear that his intent was to fully follow U.S. law regardless
of the outcome. If the request is denied, John informed them that he would
remain under community supervision for the next decade, otherwise, he would
leave never to set foot on U.S. soil. The probation department informed him
that this is an issue that he must discuss with his attorney so Mr. Doe
wrote his attorney and awaits his response.
One thing that I would like to point out is yes, John is a convicted felon,
the victim of a false accusation against him. He has not participated in
any criminal activity at this time, nor in the past.
I do thank you for sharing your opinions with us.
John,
Of course we're all being hypothetical here but in this strange world
that you have concocted your friend is indeed involved in a number of
illegal and criminal acts. And of course he is a convicted felon. To argue
therefore that "he would never attempt something illegal like this" seems
unlikely. I'm not sure if a judge could accept the deal that you propose
but
feel certain that no judge would. Thus unlawful flight is the real
proposal
that is on the table. Should your friend choose this he should forget his
family and never see them again. Even in bad spy novels it is understood
that it is difficult to pass oneself off as a native. I really can't offer
better advice than I already have.
Dave M.
|
| |
| |
It's John Doa. (From dead on arrival, though since film executives have
been getting it wrong for 20 years, I can understand how nobody these
days is aware. It's the name police used to call a dead man that they
had not yet identified.)
For John's sake, I do hope that this (doa) can wait another 50 years or so.
|
| |
| |
Ian wrote:
"John Doe" <none@none.net> wrote in message news:<haM%c.2457$ug2.996@fe2.texas.rr.com>...
It's John Doa.
Perhaps it was originally. But NOW, "John Doe", "Richard Roe", etc.,
are the
terms used fictitious names for undetermined defendants, and anonymous
plaintiffs, in the rare cases those are permitted in Court.
|
| |
| |
John Doe wrote:
Thank you for your comments Dave. I agree with you that my
friend would be under some type of obligation which could
be used against him at any time. I tend to disagree that my
friend should make a new identity for himself in his native
country since the act of doing so would be considered
illegal and he would eventually end up getting caught
living within his native country.
You moron, it's also illegal in his new country/hideout.
I know my friend and he
would never attempt something illegal like this.
Oh, so he's a convicted criminal, wants to become a
fugitive, is willing to commit passport/document fraud
in his new country ... but, he's really not the criminal type, eh?
What kind of blithering idiot are you?
Although I
am not sure, I have a feeling that my friend knows much of
the history, customs, and the language of the foreign
country.
He better know the conditions of the jails and prisons down
there, cause when he gets caught with the phoney identity documents,
regardless of who he bought them from, he will be spending time
inside those prisons, languishing and praying for his extradition to
a comfortable U$ jail.
He has no children yet the most serious concern
for my friend are his other family members and how they
will feel if he is granted his request to leave.
Bull#@($. He's a self-centered nihilist.
Of course, this is all fictitious and theoretical in nature.
You're lying again, criminal.
|
| |
| |
John Doe wrote:
He had asked me not to provide detail, but if it were
something serious, he would have spent some time in prison.
You're lying again, scumbag. You claimed he was fictitious,
and you call him John Doe, so what are you hiding? This
guy's a Child Molester, isn't he?
Yeah, he'll do real well in some backwater country where
they have lynch mobs and street justice for such cretins.
|
| |
| |
John Doe wrote:
John lives in a state having a high number of prisoners,
long sentences, all supported through very high tax rates.
He feels certain that your brother's advice would not apply
case here but he does thank him for his comments.
Your fictitious friend has thoughts and feelings?
Are you a @$#*ing idiot?
Does John
have other misconceptions that should be addressed?
Like your thinly veiled schitzophrenia?
I
personally wish that John forget about his plan to renounce
his citizenship but he insists that his condition is beyond
repair. He says that things will never be the same as they
were a year ago unless his request is granted by the judge.
It won't be. Criminals don't get to decide on self-exile in lieu of
serving their court mandated sentences.
Of course, this is all fictitious and theoretical in nature.
Of course you're lying again, pervert.
|
| |
| |
"John Doe" <none@none.net> wrote in message news:<K3_%c.2892$le.1865@fe2.texas.rr.com>...
John lives in a state having a high number of prisoners, long sentences, all
supported through very high tax rates. He feels certain that your brother's
advice would not apply case here but he does thank him for his comments.
Does John have other misconceptions that should be addressed? I personally
wish that John forget about his plan to renounce his citizenship but he
insists that his condition is beyond repair. He says that things will never
be the same as they were a year ago unless his request is granted by the
judge.
Of course, this is all fictitious and theoretical in nature.
Even if the judge were to buy off on such a deal (which strikes me as
somewhere between farfetched and preposterous), John has to find a
country that will take him in. A recent felony conviction will make
that part of his plan exceedingly difficult or downright impossible.
Even if he succeeds in finding a country that will admit him, he will
have to wait some years (and he may have no right to work, so may not
be able to support himself) in order to establish nationality there
before he can safely renounce his U.S. citizenship.
It sounds like the most quixotic scheme to evade probation that I have
ever heard of.
--
Not a lawyer,
Chris Green
|
| |
| |
Renouncing your citizenship would not free Mr Doe from criminal or civil
liability. In any case, any application to renounce citizenship would have to
be approved by the State Dept., and it is not clear why they would consent to
such a request in this case, since Mr Doe is renouncing his citizenship in an
attempt to avoid paying off his debts... (I am, admittedly, ignoring the basic
assumption that Mr Doe has absolutely no chance whatsoever of even paying off a
tiny portion of his liability.)
Here is a web page with some info about renouncing ones citizenship:
http://travel.state.gov/law/pr_renun.html
A quote from this page is:
"Persons who contemplate renunciation of U.S. nationality should be aware that,
unless they already possess a foreign nationality or are assured of acquiring
another nationality shortly after completing their renunciation, severe
hardship to them could result. In the absence of a second nationality, those
individuals would become stateless. As stateless persons, they would not be
entitled to the protection of any government. They might also find it difficult
or impossible to travel as they would probably not be entitled to a passport
from any country. Further, a person who has renounced U.S. nationality will be
required to apply for a visa to travel to the United States, just as other
aliens do. If found ineligible for a visa, a renunciant could be permanently
barred from the United States. Renunciation of American citizenship does not
necessarily prevent a former citizen's deportation from a foreign country to
the United States. Persons considering renunciation should also be aware that
the fact that they have renounced U.S. nationality may have no effect
whatsoever on their U.S. tax or military service obligations. Nor will it allow
them to escape possible prosecution for crimes which they may have committed in
the United States, or repayment of financial obligations previously incurred in
the United States. Questions about these matters should be directed to the
government agency concerned"
*****
Tim Horrigan <horrigan@aol.com>
*****
|
| |
| |
"John Doe" wrote:
[John Doe] would like to know if it is possible for
him to renounce his citizenship and leave the US,
never to return, in lieu of probation.
AFAIK, no, this would not work.
Even in the unlikely event that a judge were willing to accept such
a course of action, renunciation of citizenship can generally only
be done outside the US, through a US diplomatic or consular officer.
Judges in the US do not have authority to do this. See section
349(a)(5) of the Immigration and Nationality Act [8 USC 1481(a)(5)].
Rich Wales richw@richw.org http://www.richw.org
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer. My comments are for discussion
purposes only and are not intended to be relied upon as legal or
professional advice.
|
| |
| |
Well that pretty much answered his question, thanks for posting.
"John Doe" wrote:
AFAIK, no, this would not work.
Even in the unlikely event that a judge were willing to accept such
a course of action, renunciation of citizenship can generally only
be done outside the US, through a US diplomatic or consular officer.
Judges in the US do not have authority to do this. See section
349(a)(5) of the Immigration and Nationality Act [8 USC 1481(a)(5)].
Rich Wales richw@richw.org http://www.richw.org
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer. My comments are for discussion
purposes only and are not intended to be relied upon as legal or
professional advice.
|
| |
| |
"Arthur L. Rubin" <ronnirubin@sprintmail.com> wrote in message news:<4140A677.105F56C9@sprintmail.com>...
Ian wrote:
Perhaps it was originally. But NOW, "John Doe", "Richard Roe", etc.,
are the
terms used fictitious names for undetermined defendants, and anonymous
plaintiffs, in the rare cases those are permitted in Court.
Why did you snip the end of the line where I said just that, and then
write it again yourself?
|
| |
| |
horrigan@aol.com (Horrigan) wrote in message news:<20040909230644.23728.00000335@mb-m12.aol.com>...
Renouncing your citizenship would not free Mr Doe from criminal or civil
liability. In any case, any application to renounce citizenship would have to
be approved by the State Dept., and it is not clear why they would consent to
such a request in this case, since Mr Doe is renouncing his citizenship in an
attempt to avoid paying off his debts... (I am, admittedly, ignoring the basic
assumption that Mr Doe has absolutely no chance whatsoever of even paying off a
tiny portion of his liability.)
Here is a web page with some info about renouncing ones citizenship:
http://travel.state.gov/law/pr_renun.html
A quote from this page is:
"Persons who contemplate renunciation of U.S. nationality should be aware that,
unless they already possess a foreign nationality or are assured of acquiring
another nationality shortly after completing their renunciation, severe
hardship to them could result. In the absence of a second nationality, those
individuals would become stateless. As stateless persons, they would not be
entitled to the protection of any government. They might also find it difficult
or impossible to travel as they would probably not be entitled to a passport
from any country. Further, a person who has renounced U.S. nationality will be
required to apply for a visa to travel to the United States, just as other
aliens do. If found ineligible for a visa, a renunciant could be permanently
barred from the United States. Renunciation of American citizenship does not
necessarily prevent a former citizen's deportation from a foreign country to
the United States. Persons considering renunciation should also be aware that
the fact that they have renounced U.S. nationality may have no effect
whatsoever on their U.S. tax or military service obligations. Nor will it allow
them to escape possible prosecution for crimes which they may have committed in
the United States, or repayment of financial obligations previously incurred in
the United States. Questions about these matters should be directed to the
government agency concerned"
Quite, and just exactly which country is going to take on as a citizen,
some cunt who is leaving their current country, just to avoid pay it money?
*****
Tim Horrigan <horrigan@aol.com>
*****
|
| |
| |
Ian wrote:
"Arthur L. Rubin" <ronnirubin@sprintmail.com> wrote in message news:<4140A677.105F56C9@sprintmail.com>...
Why did you snip the end of the line where I said just that, and then
write it again yourself?
You DIDN'T say it in the post I quoted. Perhaps you
said it elsewhere.
|
| |
| |
drawnai@hotmail.com (Ian) wrote in message news:<d33ce629.0409131322.2dfd2e6b@posting.google.com>...
Quite, and just exactly which country is going to take on as a citizen,
some cunt who is leaving their current country, just to avoid pay it money?
Maybe he has dual citizenship or a foreign-national spouse :-)
The original poster did try to set up the stipulation that Mr Doe
absolutely could never ever pay back even a penny of his debt, under
any circumstances. Also, there was the stipulation Mr Doe could
absolutely never ever return to his previous profession, nor could he
ever be able to pursue a different profession. In real life, I doubt
that any judge would agree with these stipulations. In real life,
there would always be a chance of getting the money back. Not only
that, as an alternative to banishment, Mr Doe would have the option of
filing for bankruptcy, which would get him out from under some (though
perhaps not all) of the debts.
|
| |
| |
|
