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Sep 13, 7:38 AM EDT
Man Arrested for Leaving Small Tip
LAKE GEORGE, N.Y. (AP) -- Humberto A. Taveras put his money where his
mouth is and ended up arrested, accused of leaving an inadequate tip
at a restaurant.
Taveras, 41, faces a misdemeanor charge of theft of services after he
and his fellow diners argued with Soprano's Italian and American Grill
managers over the legality of requiring an 18 percent tip for large
parties.
"They chased us down like a bunch of criminals," Taveras said. "It
killed our weekend."
Taveras and eight others had pizza at the restaurant in this resort
village Sunday night. He said they weren't completely satisfied with
the food and left a tip of under 10 percent. Taveras said they also
were not told of a mandatory 18 percent gratuity for parties of six or
more and did not see notice of it on their menus.
Restaurant owner Joe Soprano said all the menus have the notice, and
the waitress informed the group. He said he did not choose to pursue
charges because of the money, but because Taveras' group was
obnoxious.
"It's unfortunate it has come to this, but this guy was rude and
abrasive. They practically threw food at us," Soprano said.
Taveras plans to fight the charge. The arrest raises the issue of
whether the gratuities that restaurants automatically tack on for
serving large groups are legally enforceable debts.
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"They chased us down like a bunch of criminals," Taveras said. "It
killed our weekend."
Taveras and eight others had pizza at the restaurant in this resort
village Sunday night. He said they weren't completely satisfied with
the food and left a tip of under 10 percent. Taveras said they also
were not told of a mandatory 18 percent gratuity for parties of six or
more and did not see notice of it on their menus.
Restaurant owner Joe Soprano said all the menus have the notice, and
the waitress informed the group. He said he did not choose to pursue
charges because of the money, but because Taveras' group was
obnoxious.
"It's unfortunate it has come to this, but this guy was rude and
abrasive. They practically threw food at us," Soprano said.
Taveras plans to fight the charge. The arrest raises the issue of
whether the gratuities that restaurants automatically tack on for
serving large groups are legally enforceable debts.
Automatic gratuities are (by definition) not legally enforceable debts. It
is a favor or gift. You can't require someone to give someone a gift.
This issue is very messy, though. I hope Taveras wins this fight, as he
SHOULD. However, this could cause other problems. Because large groups of
diners often don't tip well, if at all, a restaurant owner is practically
forced to charge for the gratuity. If this case declares that the practice
of tacking a gratuity onto a bill is illegal, watch for new restrictive
rules to be adopted by restaurant owners. Something like . . . more than 4
people requires a reservation 90 days in advance. Or maybe tables will seat
no more than 4, and be BOLTED TO THE FLOOR, with a requirement that each
table have a separate check. That way, it's not possible at all to have a
party of more than 4 on one check.
-Dave
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Dave,
Something doesn't seem right with this post. In my experience when a
"large party" tip is expected it is not left at the table but is included in
the price. Usually it is marked on the bill as a tip but it is part of the
price of the meal and is not negotiable. I note that in the description of
the dispute service was not the issue; food quality was. Why they would
punish the waitress for the chef's work is not clear. I hope Taveras loses
since he chose to punish the wrong party and may not have paid his bill.
Dave M.
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"Dave C." <mdupre@sff.net> writes:
Automatic gratuities are (by definition) not legally enforceable debts. It
is a favor or gift. You can't require someone to give someone a gift.
Frequently when a restaurant adds the tip to the bill, they
don't call it a tip or a gratuity, they call it a fee for
service. I imagine that such a fee would be enforceable if
notification was given (as it apparently was in this case).
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Dave,
Something doesn't seem right with this post. In my experience when a
"large party" tip is expected it is not left at the table but is included
in
the price. Usually it is marked on the bill as a tip but it is part of the
price of the meal and is not negotiable.
That's just it though . . . WHO SAYS it's not negotiable? The restaurant
owner? He/she doesn't have the weight of law behind them, yet, as no court
has ruled on the issue. -Dave
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On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:05:07 -0400, "Dave C." <mdupre@sff.net> wrote:
Taveras plans to fight the charge. The arrest raises the issue of
whether the gratuities that restaurants automatically tack on for
serving large groups are legally enforceable debts.
Automatic gratuities are (by definition) not legally enforceable debts. It
is a favor or gift. You can't require someone to give someone a gift.
This issue is very messy, though. I hope Taveras wins this fight, as he
SHOULD. However, this could cause other problems. Because large groups of
diners often don't tip well, if at all, a restaurant owner is practically
forced to charge for the gratuity. If this case declares that the practice
of tacking a gratuity onto a bill is illegal, watch for new restrictive
rules to be adopted by restaurant owners.
You mean like RAISING PRICES BY 15% or so? ;)
Tipping is an asinine custom; greedy employers use it as an excuse to
pay ridiculous wages to their staff, and, of course, NOBODY reports
ALL of their tips to the IRS. I won't shed a single tear to see it
disappear.
--
Friends don't let friends shop at Best Buy.
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--
Wow! Those grubs at the Golden Horseshoe Saloon are a good deal!
Sep 13, 7:38 AM EDT
Man Arrested for Leaving Small Tip
LAKE GEORGE, N.Y. (AP) -- Humberto A. Taveras put his money where his
mouth is and ended up arrested, accused of leaving an inadequate tip
at a restaurant.
Taveras, 41, faces a misdemeanor charge of theft of services after he
and his fellow diners argued with Soprano's Italian and American Grill
managers over the legality of requiring an 18 percent tip for large
parties.
"They chased us down like a bunch of criminals," Taveras said. "It
killed our weekend."
Taveras and eight others had pizza at the restaurant in this resort
village Sunday night. He said they weren't completely satisfied with
the food and left a tip of under 10 percent. Taveras said they also
were not told of a mandatory 18 percent gratuity for parties of six or
more and did not see notice of it on their menus.
Restaurant owner Joe Soprano said all the menus have the notice, and
the waitress informed the group. He said he did not choose to pursue
charges because of the money, but because Taveras' group was
obnoxious.
"It's unfortunate it has come to this, but this guy was rude and
abrasive. They practically threw food at us," Soprano said.
Taveras plans to fight the charge. The arrest raises the issue of
whether the gratuities that restaurants automatically tack on for
serving large groups are legally enforceable debts.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Tips should be earned, not automatic.
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On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 04:03:49 GMT, "Just Wondering"
<no@spam.please.org> wrote:
Wow! Those grubs at the Golden Horseshoe Saloon are a good deal!
Tips should be earned, not automatic.
I agree with that, and if the tips are MANDATORY, they MUST post it
where it is visible to everyone. If I saw such a notice posted, I can
guarantee they would NOT get my business.
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On 13 Sep 2004 08:38:05 -0700, MrPepper11@go.com (MrPepper11) wrote:
This brings something else to mind. I recently attended a county fair
and they had these guys in the restrooms that collected tips for using
the toilets. There are signs all over the place that say "How would
this restroom look if it was not clean".
First, I paid to enter the fair, and the fair should be paying someone
to clean the restrooms out of that money.
Second, I do not appreciate having beggers in a public restroom
Third, I do not appreciate some loser sitting on a stool watching me
take a piss in the urinal.
Fourth, To make it look like he was cleaning, he had cloth towels
draped over every sink in there, so a person could not wash their
hands.
Needless to say, they did not get a cent out of me, and I washed my
hands and soaked the towel. How any loser can sit in the restroom
watching people piss during the whole week of the fair, has to be a
total loser, and probably queer to boot.
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"Dave C." <mdupre@sff.net> wrote in misc.consumers:
Automatic gratuities are (by definition) not legally enforceable debts.
False.
If the menu says "18% gratuity will be added to parties of N or
more" then that's part of the stated charge. It's a sleazy and
annoying practice, but legal.
Whether arresting someone is appropriate I couldn't say. If the OP's
story is even true (note name of restaurateur), it almost certainly
leaves out relevant facts.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
"You want an intelligent conversation? Do what I do: talk to
yourself. It's the only way." -- /Torch Song Trilogy/
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"David Martel" <marte005@earthlink.net> wrote in misc.consumers:
Why they would
punish the waitress for the chef's work is not clear.
because that's how the tipping system works in this country. Yes,
it's irrational.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
"You want an intelligent conversation? Do what I do: talk to
yourself. It's the only way." -- /Torch Song Trilogy/
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Scott en Aztlan <newsgroup> wrote:
Tipping is an asinine custom; greedy employers use it as an excuse to
pay ridiculous wages to their staff, and, of course, NOBODY reports
ALL of their tips to the IRS. I won't shed a single tear to see it
disappear.
I would. I have a friend who lives in Europe, where "service" is
either included in the price or added on the bill.(*) He says that
service here is almost always better, more oriented to the customer's
comfort, than in Europe.
(*) A tip might be left for better than average service, but it would
be the equivalent of $.25-$1, regardless of the cost of the meal.
Then again, to argue devil's advocate, I found the service generally
good in Japan (in 1975), where tipping was simply _not done_. (In
some more informal places, you might buy a drink for yourself and
another for the waiter. But that would usually be for a waiter who
is almost a "friend" -- one who chats with you about the weather as
well as the food.
--
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and
to the republic which it established, one nation from many peoples, promising
liberty and justice for all.
Feel free to use the above variant pledge in your own postings.
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On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:08:06 -0400, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
"Dave C." <mdupre@sff.net> wrote in misc.consumers:
False.
If the menu says "18% gratuity will be added to parties of N or
more" then that's part of the stated charge. It's a sleazy and
annoying practice, but legal.
Whether arresting someone is appropriate I couldn't say. If the OP's
story is even true (note name of restaurateur), it almost certainly
leaves out relevant facts.
So ask for seperate checks.
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"Just Wondering" <no@spam.please.org> wrote in message news:<F4u1d.432522$%_6.369515@attbi_s01>...
--
Wow! Those grubs at the Golden Horseshoe Saloon are a good deal!
Tips should be earned, not automatic.
You and I know that, Taveras knows that, but does Tony Soprano know that?
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The charges against Taveras have been dropped. The prosecutor
who made the decision to drop the charges confirmed that they
were called a "gratuity" on the menu and that if they had
instead been called a "service charge," he would have been
legally obligated to pay them.
Go to news.google.com and seach for Humberto Taveras for more
info.
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jik@kamens.brookline.ma.us (Jonathan Kamens) wrote in news:ci7q9k$iir$1
@jik.kamens.brookline.ma.us:
The charges against Taveras have been dropped. The prosecutor
who made the decision to drop the charges confirmed that they
were called a "gratuity" on the menu and that if they had
instead been called a "service charge," he would have been
legally obligated to pay them.
Go to news.google.com and seach for Humberto Taveras for more
info.
Yup. I'd have claimed that the statement, "An 18% gratuity will be added
for parties of 12 or more," doesn't say anything about being required to
pay it. If there's no expectation that a tip is mandatory for parties of
less than 12, there's no reason to think it's mandatory for 12 or more. I
assume that they add the gratuity as a convenience for people who can't do
math with larg numbers :-)
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"Barry Gold" <bgold@nyx.net> wrote in misc.consumers:
I would. I have a friend who lives in Europe, where "service" is
either included in the price or added on the bill.(*) He says that
service here is almost always better, more oriented to the customer's
comfort, than in Europe.
His experience differs from mine. When I spent a month in
Scandinavia and Finland, I found service in restaurants was always
at least as good as here in the US.
Maybe it's because I smiled and spoke politely to the servers (as I
do here), and didn't treat them like serfs?
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
"You want an intelligent conversation? Do what I do: talk to
yourself. It's the only way." -- /Torch Song Trilogy/
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jik@kamens.brookline.ma.us (Jonathan Kamens) wrote in message news:<ci7q9k$iir$1@jik.kamens.brookline.ma.us>...
The charges against Taveras have been dropped. The prosecutor
who made the decision to drop the charges confirmed that they
were called a "gratuity" on the menu and that if they had
instead been called a "service charge," he would have been
legally obligated to pay them.
Go to news.google.com and seach for Humberto Taveras for more
info.
Whatever The Sopranos had hoped to make on this case will be lost and
then some in customer good will. How many people that have read about
this will not go there for fear of being arrested for not leaving a
large enough tip? No doubt, it will attract some curious types, but
they will not likely buy anything. And Taveras may have a false arrest
case against the plaintiff and maybe even the police, depending on New
York Law. Not a very good business decision, IMO. -Jitney
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"Barry Gold" <bgold@nyx.net> wrote in misc.consumers:
His experience differs from mine. When I spent a month in
Scandinavia and Finland, I found service in restaurants was always
at least as good as here in the US.
Maybe it's because I smiled and spoke politely to the servers (as I
do here), and didn't treat them like serfs?
I don't treat servers like serfs. I'm pretty sure my friend doesn't
either. At least, he didn't while we were eating out (many times over
the past 20 years) nor when we both worked at the same place and went
for lunch in a group, before he moved to Europe.
--
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and
to the republic which it established, one nation from many peoples, promising
liberty and justice for all.
Feel free to use the above variant pledge in your own postings.
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jtnospam@yahoo.com (jitney) wrote in message news:<b8002be7.0409150641.de2c933@posting.google.com>...
Whatever The Sopranos had hoped to make on this case will be lost and
then some in customer good will. How many people that have read about
this will not go there for fear of being arrested for not leaving a
large enough tip? No doubt, it will attract some curious types, but
they will not likely buy anything. And Taveras may have a false arrest
case against the plaintiff and maybe even the police, depending on New
York Law. Not a very good business decision, IMO. -Jitney
I agree. They're likely to also attract a few smart asses who'll go
there to deliberately stiff them on a tip now that they know it's not
enforcable. Wonder if the owner is smart enough to change his menu
wording to "service charge."
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jitney wrote:
Whatever The Sopranos had hoped to make on this case will be lost and
then some in customer good will. How many people that have read about
this will not go there for fear of being arrested for not leaving a
large enough tip? No doubt, it will attract some curious types, but
they will not likely buy anything. And Taveras may have a false arrest
case against the plaintiff and maybe even the police, depending on New
York Law. Not a very good business decision, IMO. -Jitney
Do you think so? First, only large parties are affected by the
tip requirement, which obviously is no different than many other
restaurants have. And I would expect that many would be
impressed by the owner's sticking up for his employees, which
was the reason he did it in the first place, and think that the
customer was an asshole for doing what he did.
Bill
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In article <4148E851.814AF62B@prodigy.net>,
Bill <billrubin@prodigy.net> wrote:
jitney wrote:
Do you think so? First, only large parties are affected by the
tip requirement, which obviously is no different than many other
restaurants have.
And that certainly makes it alright.
And I would expect that many would be
impressed by the owner's sticking up for his employees, which
was the reason he did it in the first place,
I'm sure that's the reason they do it. yeah, uh-huh.
and think that the customer was an asshole for doing what he did.
They'd be "entitled" to that. They aren't "entitled" to a tip.
Bill
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On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 01:14:33 GMT, Bill <billrubin@prodigy.net>
jitney wrote:
Do you think so? First, only large parties are affected by the
tip requirement, which obviously is no different than many other
restaurants have. And I would expect that many would be
impressed by the owner's sticking up for his employees, which
was the reason he did it in the first place, and think that the
customer was an asshole for doing what he did.
Well, there were several customers involved, and the service reportedly
sucked.
I don't know all the facts, but it sounds to me like the restaurant
owner was the asshole and the court seems to have agreed with me.
Bill
--
There's no way to delay that trouble comin' everyday
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"Mike Z. Helm" wrote:
Well, there were several customers involved, and the service reportedly
sucked.
I don't know all the facts, but it sounds to me like the restaurant
owner was the asshole and the court seems to have agreed with me.
And if you believe the restaurant owner, the customers were
obnoxious. The DA only dismissed the charge because it was
listed as a tip and not a service charge. They're not saying you
cannot add a service charge, and if it had been called that the
customer would still be facing the charges.
Bill
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x-no-archive: yes
can s/c's also be disputed, ie underpaid? if you feel the service provided
(or not)
does not justify the extra charge..
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And I would expect that many would be
impressed by the owner's sticking up for his employees, which
was the reason he did it in the first place, and think that the
customer was an asshole for doing what he did.
Just as I believe that I don't owe an actor a standing ovation
for a poor performance, I don't believe I owe an outstanding tip
for a poor meal. A tip is a measure of customer satisfaction.
What the owner did in this case was to punish the customer for
expressing his displeasure with the meal. The owner didn't
like the message and decided to kill the messenger. The owner
and his wife need to heed this wake up call. They have a problem
with their resturant. It's not a problem with their customers.
What he did was horrible publicity. I'd never eat there now.
What if I did something else that he didn't like? He might
decide to have me arrested. In fact, it's probably a good
idea to stay out of Lake George, NY altogether, as the police
there might be shaking down the tourists. At least they are
quick to arrest for non-crimes. Who needs a mug shot and being
finger printed as a way to spend a vacation? That doesn't
sound like a good time to me!
I believe in tipping for good service. I regularly tip 20% or
more at my favourite resturant. The staff know me and treat
me very well because of it. That's the whole point of a tip.
(Some say "tips" mean "To Insure Proper Service", but that
sounds like an urban legend to me).
Good service deserves a good tip!
Crappy service deserves a crappy tip. There's nothing wrong
with giving a crappy tip as long as you give a good tip when
you get good service. Fair is fair.
What the owner did in this case was simply wrong and he'll
pay for it. Shit if 10% of people who thinks he's a jerk
just calls his business at 512-668-4379 and complains, he'll
end up paying for it. They don't even need to visit him
at 157 Canada Street, Lake George, NY 12845 (or send him a
note, postage due) expressing their displeasure.
Nah. Don't do that. It would be wrong! :)
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