|
|
|
HE BOGUS QUOTE that is found all over the internet being offered by
separationists.
The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from
these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in
blood for centuries. ----James Madison, 1803, letter objecting to the use
of government land for churches, quoted from James A. Haught, ed., "2000
Years of Disbelief"
OR
The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these
shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood
for centuries. - James Madison
OR
The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these
shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood
for centuries. - -- James Madison, letter objecting to the use of
government land for churches, 1803.
************************************************************************
Until such a time as someone provides a complete and proper cite for the
above quote it has to be viewed with high suspicion.
An email to me concerning this quote several years ago:
----------------------------------------------------
From: boston@us.net
Subject: James Madison quote
To: JALISON@infi.net
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:47:09 -0500 (EST)
JIM:
Does this quote ring a bell with you? I have heard it before, but I'll be
darned if I can actually find it in any of Madison's writings. Do you know
if it's legitimate?
<----Forwarded Message ---->
From: ACLUVT@aol.com
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:11:28 -0500 (EST)
To: isbell@au.org
Subject: James Madison quote
Hi,
We're trying to find the source of the following quote from James Madison,
used by Molly Ivins: "The purpose of the separation of church and state is
to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the
soil of Europe with blood for centuries."
Can you help? Or give us to someone who might know? Thanks.
Leslie Williams
Executive Director
ACLU of Vermont
-----------------------------
Rob Boston
Assistant Director of Communications
Americans United
boston@au.org
(202) 466-3234
==================================
I [jalison] emailed back at that time that I had no record of any such
quote. In addition he also was told the same thing by Prof. Robert S.
Alley: Editor of James Madison on Religious Liberty Promethrus Books (1998)
See below:
=========================================
From: boston@us.net
Subject: Re: James Madison quote
To: jalison@infi.net
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:16:46 -0500 (EST)
Jim:
Thanks for your help with that Madison "quote." I touched base with Bob
Alley (who is one of our trustees) and he also could not confirm it. I
e-mailed the folks in Vermont and recommended they do not use the quote.
-----------------------------
Rob Boston
Assistant Director of Communications
Americans United
boston@au.org
(202) 466-3234
=========================================================
[currently]
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 22:07:34 -0800 (PST)
From: richard [deleted]
Subject: verification of a madison quote
To: jalison@cox.net
Hi Mr. Allison,
First, I wanted to say that I love your site.. it has been a very valuable
resource for me over the past few years. But now, down to business...
there is a James Madison quote floating around the internet, that I believe
may be erroneous. The most extensive description I can find of it is from
positiveatheism.com, as follows:
"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from
these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in
blood for centuries." -- James Madison, letter objecting to the use of
government land for churches, 1803, quoted from James A. Haught, ed., 2000
Years of Disbelief
I have contacted the editor of the James Madison Papers, and the author of
the book listed above, and neither of them were able to find the source of
that quote. The only sources I can find on the internet have the
description listed above or less. I thought maybe you might know something
about it, or if it is unverifiable, that you could add it to your
'problematic quotes' page.
thanks for your time,
richard
****************************************************************************
[me again]
Madison did object to the use of government land for churches in one of his
vetoes in 1811.
But that has nothing to do with the quote in question.
* Madison's vetoes: Some of The First Official Meanings Assigned to The
Establishment Clause (1811)
http://candst.tripod.com/madvetos.htm
************************************************************************The
only thing in 1803 is this, and it doesn't apply
OCTOBER 1, 1803
Notes for annual message, Oct. 17, 1803: alterations and additions, etc [1]
(3) after "assure"-are proposed "in due season, and under prudent
arrangements, important aids to our Treasury, as well as," an ample etc.
Quere: if the two or three succeeding paragraphs be not more
adapted to the separate and subsequent communication, if adopted as above
suggested.
(4) For the first sentence, may be substituted "In the territory between
the Mississippi and the Ohio another valuable acquisition has been made by
a treaty etc."[3.] As it stands, it does not sufficiently distinguish the
nature of the one acquisition from that of the other, and seems to imply
that the acquisition from France was wholly on the other side of the
Mississippi
May it not be as well to omit the detail of the stipulated
considerations, and particularly that of the Roman Catholic Pastor. The
jealousy of some may see in it a principle, not according with the
exemption of Religion from Civil power. In the Indian Treaty it will be
less noticed than in a President's speech.[4.]
FOOTNOTES:
[1.] For TJ's third annual message to Congress, Oct. 17, 1803, see Ford,
VIII, pp. 266-7)
[3.] TI's message announced the acquisition of territory by treaty from the
Kaskaskia Indians; see
Ford, VIII, pp. 269-70.
[4.] TJ accepted JM's suggestion to omit any discussion of Indian treaty
requirements to maintain a Roman Catholic priest, leaving the stipulations
in the treaty to "the competence of both houses.... as soon as the senate
shall have advised its ratification"; see ibid.
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: James Madison to Thomas Jefferson, Washington, Oct.
1, 1803, Notes for annual message, Oct. 17, 1803: alterations and
additions, etc.[1.], The Republic of Letters, the Correspondence between
Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, 1776-1826, Edited by James Morton
Smith, Vol. II, 1790 -1804, W. W. Norton & Company, New York, London,
(1995) pp 1297-98)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only known references to separation in the writings of Madison are the
following:
************************************************************
James Madison on Separation of Church and State
Direct references to separation to be found in the writings of James
Madison
----------------------------------------
OCTOBER 1, 1803
Notes for annual message, Oct. 17, 1803: alterations and additions, etc [1]
(3) after "assure"-are proposed "in due season, and under prudent
arrangements, important aids to our Treasury, as well as," an ample etc.
Quere: if the two or three succeeding paragraphs be not mor
|
| |
| |
THE BOGUS QUOTE that is found all over the internet being offered by
separationists.
Here is where the expression of "separation of church and state" comes from.
It was a letter exchange between Jefferson and the Danbury Baptist
Convention in 1802:
".....that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment
of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall
of separation between church and state."
http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html
Here are some interesting words from Madison, though I did not find the
specific quote in question, and your post was the first time I've heard it:
http://www.teachingaboutreligion.org/WhitePapers/separation_church_state.htm
--
-Donald in Austin
AA #2104
Apatriot #22
Atheist FF/EMT
.....and ordained minister
Stork pin recipient: May 1, 2003 -Madelyn
|
| |
| |
Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou
not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except
it were given thee from above..." - John 19:10-11
buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:
THE BOGUS QUOTE that is found all over the internet being offered
by
separationists.
The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from
these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe
in
blood for centuries. ----James Madison, 1803, letter objecting to
the use
of government land for churches, quoted from James A. Haught, ed.,
"2000
Years of Disbelief"
OR
The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from
these
shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with
blood
for centuries. - James Madison
OR
The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from
these
shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with
blood
for centuries. - -- James Madison, letter objecting to the use of
government land for churches, 1803.
************************************************************************
Until such a time as someone provides a complete and proper cite for
the
above quote it has to be viewed with high suspicion.
An email to me concerning this quote several years ago:
----------------------------------------------------
From: boston@us.net
Subject: James Madison quote
To: JALISON@infi.net
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:47:09 -0500 (EST)
JIM:
Does this quote ring a bell with you? I have heard it before, but
I'll be
darned if I can actually find it in any of Madison's writings. Do you
know
if it's legitimate?
<----Forwarded Message ---->
From: ACLUVT@aol.com
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:11:28 -0500 (EST)
To: isbell@au.org
Subject: James Madison quote
Hi,
We're trying to find the source of the following quote from James
Madison,
used by Molly Ivins: "The purpose of the separation of church and
state is
to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has
soaked the
soil of Europe with blood for centuries."
Can you help? Or give us to someone who might know? Thanks.
Leslie Williams
Executive Director
ACLU of Vermont
-----------------------------
Rob Boston
Assistant Director of Communications
Americans United
boston@au.org
(202) 466-3234
==================================
I [jalison] emailed back at that time that I had no record of any
such
quote. In addition he also was told the same thing by Prof. Robert S.
Alley: Editor of James Madison on Religious Liberty Promethrus Books
(1998)
See below:
=========================================
From: boston@us.net
Subject: Re: James Madison quote
To: jalison@infi.net
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:16:46 -0500 (EST)
Jim:
Thanks for your help with that Madison "quote." I touched base with
Bob
Alley (who is one of our trustees) and he also could not confirm it.
I
e-mailed the folks in Vermont and recommended they do not use the
quote.
-----------------------------
Rob Boston
Assistant Director of Communications
Americans United
boston@au.org
(202) 466-3234
=========================================================
[currently]
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 22:07:34 -0800 (PST)
From: richard [deleted]
Subject: verification of a madison quote
To: jalison@cox.net
Hi Mr. Allison,
First, I wanted to say that I love your site.. it has been a very
valuable
resource for me over the past few years. But now, down to
business...
there is a James Madison quote floating around the internet, that I
believe
may be erroneous. The most extensive description I can find of it is
from
positiveatheism.com, as follows:
"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever
from
these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe
in
blood for centuries." -- James Madison, letter objecting to the use
of
government land for churches, 1803, quoted from James A. Haught, ed.,
2000
Years of Disbelief
I have contacted the editor of the James Madison Papers, and the
author of
the book listed above, and neither of them were able to find the
source of
that quote. The only sources I can find on the internet have the
description listed above or less. I thought maybe you might know
something
about it, or if it is unverifiable, that you could add it to your
'problematic quotes' page.
thanks for your time,
richard
****************************************************************************
[me again]
Madison did object to the use of government land for churches in one
of his
vetoes in 1811.
But that has nothing to do with the quote in question.
* Madison's vetoes: Some of The First Official Meanings Assigned
to The
Establishment Clause (1811)
http://candst.tripod.com/madvetos.htm
************************************************************************The
only thing in 1803 is this, and it doesn't apply
OCTOBER 1, 1803
Notes for annual message, Oct. 17, 1803: alterations and additions,
etc [1]
(3) after "assure"-are proposed "in due season, and under prudent
arrangements, important aids to our Treasury, as well as," an ample
etc.
Quere: if the two or three succeeding paragraphs be not more
adapted to the separate and subsequent communication, if adopted as
above
suggested.
(4) For the first sentence, may be substituted "In the territory
between
the Mississippi and the Ohio another valuable acquisition has been
made by
a treaty etc."[3.] As it stands, it does not sufficiently distinguish
the
nature of the one acquisition from that of the other, and seems to
imply
that the acquisition from France was wholly on the other side of the
Mississippi
May it not be as well to omit the detail of the stipulated
considerations, and particularly that of the Roman Catholic Pastor.
The
jealousy of some may see in it a principle, not according with the
exemption of Religion from Civil power. In the Indian Treaty it will
be
less noticed than in a President's speech.[4.]
FOOTNOTES:
[1.] For TJ's third annual message to Congress, Oct. 17, 1803, see
Ford,
VIII, pp. 266-7)
[3.] TI's message announced the acquisition of territory by treaty
from the
Kaskaskia Indians; see
Ford, VIII, pp. 269-70.
[4.] TJ accepted JM's suggestion to omit any discussion of Indian
treaty
requirements to maintain a Roman Catholic priest, leaving the
stipulations
in the treaty to "the competence of both houses.... as soon as the
senate
shall have advised its ratification"; see ibid.
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: James Madison to Thomas Jefferson,
Washington, Oct.
1, 1803, Notes for annual message, Oct. 17, 1803: alterations and
additions, etc.[1.], The Republic of Letters, the Correspondence
between
Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, 1776-1826, Edited by James Morton
Smith, Vol. II, 1790 -1804, W. W. Norton & Company, New York, London,
(1995) pp 1297-98)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| |
| |
--
JOHN ADAMS: "This would be the best of all possible worlds,
if there were no religions in it."
JOHN ADAMS: Letters to F.A. Van Der Kamp 1809-1816. "How has it
happened that millions of myths, fables, legends and tales have been
blended with Jewish and Christian fables and myths and have made them
the most bloody religion that has ever existed? Filled with the sordid
and detestable purposes of superstition and fraud?"
THOMAS JEFFERSON: Notes on Religion, passed in the Assembly of
Virginia, in the Year, 1786. "Millions of innocent men, women and
children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt,
tortured, fined, and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this
coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half
hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
THOMAS JEFFERSON: Letter to Thomas Whittemore, June 5, 1822:
"Christian creeds and doctrines, the clergy's own fatal inventions,
through all the ages has made of Christendom a slaughterhouse,
and divided it into sects of inextinguishable hatred for one another."
JAMES MADISON: "The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep
forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil
of Europe with blood for centuries."
GEORGE WASHINGTON--Treaty of Tripoli 1796: The government of the United
States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:
THE BOGUS QUOTE that is found all over the internet being
offered by
separationists.
The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep
forever from
these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil
of Europe in
blood for centuries. ----James Madison, 1803, letter
objecting to the use
of government land for churches, quoted from James A.
Haught, ed., "2000
Years of Disbelief"
OR
The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep
forever from these
shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of
Europe with blood
for centuries. - James Madison
OR
The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep
forever from these
shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of
Europe with blood
for centuries. - -- James Madison, letter objecting to the
use of
government land for churches, 1803.
************************************************************************
Until such a time as someone provides a complete and proper
cite for the
above quote it has to be viewed with high suspicion.
An email to me concerning this quote several years ago:
----------------------------------------------------
From: boston@us.net
Subject: James Madison quote
To: JALISON@infi.net
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:47:09 -0500 (EST)
JIM:
Does this quote ring a bell with you? I have heard it
before, but I'll be
darned if I can actually find it in any of Madison's
writings. Do you know
if it's legitimate?
<----Forwarded Message ---->
From: ACLUVT@aol.com
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:11:28 -0500 (EST)
To: isbell@au.org
Subject: James Madison quote
Hi,
We're trying to find the source of the following quote from
James Madison,
used by Molly Ivins: "The purpose of the separation of
church and state is
to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that
has soaked the
soil of Europe with blood for centuries."
Can you help? Or give us to someone who might know?
Thanks.
Leslie Williams
Executive Director
ACLU of Vermont
-----------------------------
Rob Boston
Assistant Director of Communications
Americans United
boston@au.org
(202) 466-3234
==================================
I [jalison] emailed back at that time that I had no record
of any such
quote. In addition he also was told the same thing by Prof.
Robert S.
Alley: Editor of James Madison on Religious Liberty
Promethrus Books (1998)
See below:
=========================================
From: boston@us.net
Subject: Re: James Madison quote
To: jalison@infi.net
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:16:46 -0500 (EST)
Jim:
Thanks for your help with that Madison "quote." I touched
base with Bob
Alley (who is one of our trustees) and he also could not
confirm it. I
e-mailed the folks in Vermont and recommended they do not
use the quote. -----------------------------
Rob Boston
Assistant Director of Communications
Americans United
boston@au.org
(202) 466-3234
=========================================================
[currently]
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 22:07:34 -0800 (PST)
From: richard [deleted]
Subject: verification of a madison quote
To: jalison@cox.net
Hi Mr. Allison,
First, I wanted to say that I love your site.. it has been
a very valuable
resource for me over the past few years. But now, down to
business...
there is a James Madison quote floating around the
internet, that I believe
may be erroneous. The most extensive description I can find
of it is from
positiveatheism.com, as follows:
"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep
forever from
these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil
of Europe in
blood for centuries." -- James Madison, letter objecting to
the use of
government land for churches, 1803, quoted from James A.
Haught, ed., 2000
Years of Disbelief
I have contacted the editor of the James Madison Papers,
and the author of
the book listed above, and neither of them were able to
find the source of
that quote. The only sources I can find on the internet
have the
description listed above or less. I thought maybe you
might know something
about it, or if it is unverifiable, that you could add it
to your 'problematic quotes' page.
thanks for your time,
richard
****************************************************************************
[me again]
Madison did object to the use of government land for
churches in one of his
vetoes in 1811.
But that has nothing to do with the quote in question.
* Madison's vetoes: Some of The First Official Meanings
Assigned to The
Establishment Clause (1811)
http://candst.tripod.com/madvetos.htm
************************************************************************The
only thing in 1803 is this, and it doesn't apply
OCTOBER 1, 1803
Notes for annual message, Oct. 17, 1803: alterations and
additions, etc [1] (3) after "assure"-are proposed "in due
season, and under prudent
arrangements, important aids to our Treasury, as well as,"
an ample etc.
Quere: if the two or three succeeding paragraphs be not more
adapted to the separate and subsequent communication, if
adopted as above
suggested.
(4) For the first sentence, may be substituted "In the
territory between
the Mississippi and the Ohio another valuable acquisition
has been made by
a treaty etc."[3.] As it stands, it does not sufficiently
distinguish the
nature of the one acquisition from that of the other, and
seems to imply
that the acquisition from France was wholly on the other
side of the
Mississippi
May it not be as well to omit the detail of the stipulated
considerations, and particularly that of the Ro
|
| |
| |
<buckeye-ELO@nospam.net> wrote
[---snip bogus issue---]
The only people who need to (and do) invent quotes from
"founding fathers" are the people ATTACKING the
separation of church & state.
There is no reason to invent Madison quotes which defend
the separation, because there's no shortage of statements,
made by Madison, which do precisely that.
Example:
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/qmadison.htm
The actual debate on the wording of the first amendment (a
debate that completely refutes every anti-separation argument,
as the intend of the amendment is made all too clear) can be
found in "The Annals Of Congress," starting on page 757,
dated August 15th, 1789.
"The Annals of Congress" can be found here, at the Library of
Congress website:
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/amlaw/lwac.html
The motives behind anyone inventing any fake Madison quotes
is clear, and quite undeniable. The anti-separation evil has
invented numerous quotes which they attribute to the "founding
fathers," in addition to misrepresenting and/or dishonestly
editing numerous others. There are so many examples of the
lunatic right-wing doing this that it just isn't practical to list
them all here. But, for a partial list (only representing a tiny
fraction of the fake quotes the lunatic right has invented), do
a google search on:
"David Barton" fake quotes
Here's just a sample:
http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/founding.htm
This *One* man is responsible for dozens, if not hundreds
of fake quotes that have found their way into countless
right-wing publications.
As an interesting side note, David Barton was hired by the
Bush campaign.
|
| |
| |
"The other Donald" <the_donald_13@yeehaw2.com> wrote
Here is where the expression of "separation of church and
state" comes from.
Not to get picky, but nobody is served by a debate centered on
exactly when a particular phrase was coined. That's simply a
diversion. The real question (and there is no debate, as the
question was so thoroughly settled) was on the INTENT of the
first amendment.
As I pointed out a few moments earlier, the INTENT of the
first amendment was to establish a separation between church
and state, and this WAS viewed as important (and even
necessary) by the PEOPLE of the United States.
This fact was never not known, never in question and never
without thorough documentation to prove it. In fact, this
INTENT was never even disputed before modern times,
when religious literalist decided that their desire to destroy
the separation created by the "founding fathers" out weighed
and objective truth on the matter.
In addition to the all too numerous quotes from Madison and
the like (keeping in mind that Madison was the author of the
U.S. constitution), I again point you to the congressional record
of the debate held on the 1st amendment, which can be found
here:
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/amlaw/lwac.html
Page 757, August 15th 1789.
|
| |
| |
"JTEM" <gymraven@hotmail.com> wrote
Not to get picky, but nobody is served by a debate centered on
exactly when a particular phrase was coined.
Actually, that's the only debate there can be.
The intellectual dishonesty more lies in the conflation of the words
'religion' and 'church'. The free practice of religion is protected, the
establishment of a State church prohibited.
'Congress shall make no law.....' is pretty unambiguous as well.
Chas
|
| |
| |
"The other Donald" <the_donald_13@yeehaw2.com> wrote
Not to get picky, but nobody is served by a debate centered on
exactly when a particular phrase was coined. That's simply a
diversion. The real question (and there is no debate, as the
question was so thoroughly settled) was on the INTENT of the
first amendment.
But you are getting picky, and to the wrong person.
As far as I understand, Jefferson 'wrote' the First Amendment, and then
explained its meaning when corresponding with the Danbury Baptists.
As I pointed out a few moments earlier, the INTENT of the
first amendment was to establish a separation between church
and state, and this WAS viewed as important (and even
necessary) by the PEOPLE of the United States.
My post was sent four hours before yours, and about forty minutes after the
thread originated.
I am detecting a bit of unwarranted hostility in your posts. We're on the
same page, and fighting the same fight.
I was merely replying to "Buckeye" that of all the quotes I've heard
attributed to the Founding Fathers, his message was the first time I'd heard
that partucular one for Madison.
The underlying point was to take it with a grain of salt.
--
-Donald in Austin
AA #2104
Apatriot #22
Atheist FF/EMT
.....and ordained minister
Stork pin recipient: May 1, 2003 -Madelyn
|
| |
| |
"K.C." wrote:
"Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou
not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except
it were given thee from above..." - John 19:10-11
Which explains why you can't do bupkiss...God can't be bothered to give you ANYTHING.
Paul
buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:
by
in
the use
"2000
these
blood
these
blood
************************************************************************
the
I'll be
know
Madison,
state is
soaked the
such
(1998)
Bob
I
quote.
valuable
business...
believe
from
from
in
of
2000
author of
source of
something
****************************************************************************
of his
to The
************************************************************************The
etc [1]
etc.
above
between
made by
the
imply
The
be
Ford,
from the
treaty
stipulations
|
| |
| |
"JTEM" <gymraven@hotmail.com> wrote:
:|
:|<buckeye-ELO@nospam.net> wrote
:| [---snip bogus issue---]
:|
Bogus issue?
Sorry dude, the issue isn't bogus, the quote is bogus.
Here read it again
From: buckeye-ELO@nospam.net
Subject: A bogus Madison quote used by separationists
Newsgroups: alt.christian.religion.presbyterian, misc.legal,
law.court.federal, alt.christnet.evangelical, alt.atheism,
alt.religion.christian, alt.religion.christianity
Date: 2004-11-08 06:21:16 PST
THE BOGUS QUOTE that is found all over the internet being offered by
separationists.
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&selm=360vo01f6sqs34voioo3d32t0bvbsa9kuu%404ax.com
Hate to rain on your parade but both sides have been known to use bogus
quotes.
Study Guide to Quotes:
Quotes in General
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd7a.htm
Problematical Separationist Quotes
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd7b.htm
Problematical Religious Right Quotes And Arguments
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd7c.htm
:|The only people who need to (and do) invent quotes from
:|"founding fathers" are the people ATTACKING the
:|separation of church & state.
Both sides have been caught using bogus quotes.
:|There is no reason to invent Madison quotes which defend
:|the separation, because there's no shortage of statements,
:|made by Madison, which do precisely that.
Somebody did it anyways.
:|
:|Example:
:|
:| http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/qmadison.htm
:|
:|The actual debate on the wording of the first amendment (a
:|debate that completely refutes every anti-separation argument,
:|as the intend of the amendment is made all too clear) can be
:|found in "The Annals Of Congress," starting on page 757,
:|dated August 15th, 1789.
:|
:|"The Annals of Congress" can be found here, at the Library of
:|Congress website:
:|
:| http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/amlaw/lwac.html
All of that can be found on our web site as well
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
:|The motives behind anyone inventing any fake Madison quotes
:|is clear, and quite undeniable. The anti-separation evil has
:|invented numerous quotes which they attribute to the "founding
:|fathers," in addition to misrepresenting and/or dishonestly
:|editing numerous others. There are so many examples of the
:|lunatic right-wing doing this that it just isn't practical to list
:|them all here. But, for a partial list (only representing a tiny
:|fraction of the fake quotes the lunatic right has invented), do
:|a google search on:
Nobody is saying that those who oppose separation have not created bogus
quotes. Thus your commentary above is irrelevant.
The issue is a specific quote that is attributed to James Madison but which
cannot be found anywhere among his papers, writings, etc.
:|
:|"David Barton" fake quotes
:|
:|Here's just a sample:
:|
:|http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/founding.htm
:|
I know all about David Barton:
The Barton Chronicles
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/bartchro.htm
* Jonathan Dayton and the Ben Franklin Prayer/Chaplain myth
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/franklin.htm
:|This *One* man is responsible for dozens, if not hundreds
:|of fake quotes that have found their way into countless
:|right-wing publications.
:|
:|As an interesting side note, David Barton was hired by the
:|Bush campaign.
Do you have any evidence of the above? If so kindly post it, I would be
interested in seeing it, I could use it
**********************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
"Dedicated to combatting 'history by sound bite'."
Now including a re-publication of Tom Peters
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE HOME PAGE
and
Audio links to Supreme Court oral arguments and
Speech by civil rights/constitutional lawyer and others.
This site is a member of the following web rings:
Freethought Ring--&--Freethought, Religion & Beliefs Ring
The First Amendment Ring--&--The Church-State Ring
American History WebRing--&--The History Ring
Let Freedom Ring--&--Religious Freedom Ring
Law Issues Ring--&--Legal Research Ring
**************************************************
|
| |
| |
"The other Donald" <the_donald_13@yeehaw2.com> wrote:
:|
:|> THE BOGUS QUOTE that is found all over the internet being offered by
:|> separationists.
:|
:|Here is where the expression of "separation of church and state" comes from.
:|It was a letter exchange between Jefferson and the Danbury Baptist
:|Convention in 1802:
:|
:|".....that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment
:|of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall
:|of separation between church and state."
:|
:|http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html
:|
However, Jefferson did not created church state separation. The principle
of Church state separation was embodied in the unamended constitution long
before Jefferson ever received and answered a letter from the Danbury
Baptist association.
Study Guide: Separation of Church and State - Indepth
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd0.htm
The Establishment Clause
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/estclause.htm
* Fourteenth Amendment
http://candst.tripod.com/14thamend.htm
Some Thoughts on Religion and Law
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/bthot-lr.htm
A Simple Test
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/simptest.htm
:|Here are some interesting words from Madison, though I did not find the
:|specific quote in question, and your post was the first time I've heard it:
:|http://www.teachingaboutreligion.org/WhitePapers/separation_church_state.htm
After a quick scan it looks like a decent article except it doesn't cite
the quotes.
You wouldn't find the following quote there since it is bogus
**********************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
"Dedicated to combatting 'history by sound bite'."
Now including a re-publication of Tom Peters
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE HOME PAGE
and
Audio links to Supreme Court oral arguments and
Speech by civil rights/constitutional lawyer and others.
This site is a member of the following web rings:
Freethought Ring--&--Freethought, Religion & Beliefs Ring
The First Amendment Ring--&--The Church-State Ring
American History WebRing--&--The History Ring
Let Freedom Ring--&--Religious Freedom Ring
Law Issues Ring--&--Legal Research Ring
**************************************************
|
| |
| |
"JTEM" <gymraven@hotmail.com> wrote:
:|
:|"The other Donald" <the_donald_13@yeehaw2.com> wrote
:|
:|> Here is where the expression of "separation of church and
:|> state" comes from.
:|
:|Not to get picky, but nobody is served by a debate centered on
:|exactly when a particular phrase was coined. That's simply a
:|diversion.
To get very picky, everyone is served by exposing bogus quotes.
:|The real question (and there is no debate, as the
:|question was so thoroughly settled) was on the INTENT of the
:|first amendment.
The question is a bogus quote, even if your don't want to deal with that.
:|As I pointed out a few moments earlier, the INTENT of the
:|first amendment was to establish a separation between church
:|and state, and this WAS viewed as important (and even
:|necessary) by the PEOPLE of the United States.
First Amendment isn't the topic here, nor is intent the issue here. This
topic is about a bogus quote that is all over the internet attributed to
James Madison but which doesn't exist among his papers or writings.
It is unfortunate that that seems to bother you, but that is the topic of
this thread.
:|This fact was never not known, never in question and never
:|without thorough documentation to prove it. In fact, this
:|INTENT was never even disputed before modern times,
:|when religious literalist decided that their desire to destroy
:|the separation created by the "founding fathers" out weighed
:|and objective truth on the matter.
You don't know history very well.
You might begin with some of the following:
* Was Church/state Separation Part of the Original Constitution?: A
Review of Philip Hamburger's Provocative Recent Book on Separation's
History
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/books/reviews/20020920_hamilton.html
*The Jasper Adams Saga
o Introduction
o Jasper Adams Sermon: Relation of Christianity to Civil
Government, First Edition
http://candst.tripod.com/jasp1.htm
o Jasper Adams Sermon, First Edition
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/jasp1.htm
o The letters to and from Jasper Adams.
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/jaspltrs.htm
o Rebuttal to Jasper Adams Sermon, Immunity of Religion
http://candst.tripod.com/jasprebut.htm
o Jasper Adams Sermon: Second Edition
http://candst.tripod.com/jasp2.htm
* The Dangers of Combining Politics And Religion
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/pol1800.htm
* Sunday (Sabbath) arguments and Clashes (1810-1835)
o Genealogy of Sunday Laws
http://candst.tripod.com/geneal.html
o The Sunday Mail argument (1810-1830)
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/sundays3.htm
* Joseph Story: A look at the writings of the man whom some have styled
the "father of religious accommodationism."
o Is Christianity part of English Common Law
http://candst.tripod.com/joestor4.htm
o Joseph Story's ongoing war with Thomas Jefferson
http://candst.tripod.com/joestor3.htm
o Joseph Story's Commentaries of the Constitution
http://candst.tripod.com/joestor1.htm
o Two Views: James Madison's and Joseph Story's
http://candst.tripod.com/joestor2.htm
* Rebuttal to Jefferson's Bill for Religious Freedom
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/statuterebut.htm
The "Christian Nation" Decision and Rebuttal. Researched by Jim Allison
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/holytrin.htm
Soon to be posted on this web site will be a series of Articles under the
title of AMERICAN THEOCRATS-PAST AND PRESENT that show the idea of church
state separation was contested from the very beginning.
:|In addition to the all too numerous quotes from Madison and
:|the like (keeping in mind that Madison was the author of the
:|U.S. constitution), I again point you to the congressional record
:|of the debate held on the 1st amendment, which can be found
:|here:
:|
:|http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/amlaw/lwac.html
:|
:|Page 757, August 15th 1789.
I suggest you look over the following web site of ours. You could use the
education of could provide you with.
**********************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
"Dedicated to combatting 'history by sound bite'."
Now including a re-publication of Tom Peters
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE HOME PAGE
and
Audio links to Supreme Court oral arguments and
Speech by civil rights/constitutional lawyer and others.
This site is a member of the following web rings:
Freethought Ring--&--Freethought, Religion & Beliefs Ring
The First Amendment Ring--&--The Church-State Ring
American History WebRing--&--The History Ring
Let Freedom Ring--&--Religious Freedom Ring
Law Issues Ring--&--Legal Research Ring
**************************************************
|
| |
| |
Chas" <chasclementsSPOOF@comcast.net> wrote:
:|"JTEM" <gymraven@hotmail.com> wrote
:|> Not to get picky, but nobody is served by a debate centered on
:|> exactly when a particular phrase was coined.
:|
:|Actually, that's the only debate there can be.
:|The intellectual dishonesty more lies in the conflation of the words
:|'religion' and 'church'. The free practice of religion is protected, the
:|establishment of a State church prohibited.
:|'Congress shall make no law.....' is pretty unambiguous as well.
:|
:|Chas
:|
Conflation
conflation
http://computing-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/conflation
(database)conflation - Combining or blending of two or more versions
of a text; confusion or mixing up. Conflation algorithms are used in
databases.
**********************************************************************************
From: buckeye-ELO@nospam.net
Subject: Re: Please help these people out
Newsgroups: alt.education, alt.politics.bush, alt.politics.democrats.d,
alt.politics.liberalism, alt.politics.usa.constitution,
alt.politics.usa.republican, misc.education
Date: 2004-11-22 10:18:14 PST
"zerkanX" <zerkanX@nospam.net> wrote:
:|First and most important: Neither God nor Religion is synonymous with Church.
:|We can only hope that the later is with the first.
Tell it to Madison: [EMPHASIS ADDED]
James Madison on Separation of Church and State
Direct references to separation to be found in the writings of James
Madison
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/qmadison.htm
----------------------------------------
OCTOBER 1, 1803
Notes for annual message, Oct. 17, 1803: alterations and additions, etc [1]
(3) after "assure"-are proposed "in due season, and under prudent
arrangements, important aids to our Treasury, as well as," an ample etc.
Quere: if the two or three succeeding paragraphs be not more
adapted to the separate and subsequent communication, if adopted as above
suggested.
(4) For the first sentence, may be substituted "In the territory between
the Mississippi and the Ohio another valuable acquisition has been made by
a treaty etc."[3.] As it stands, it does not sufficiently distinguish the
nature of the one acquisition from that of the other, and seems to imply
that the acquisition from France was wholly on the other side of the
Mississippi
May it not be as well to omit the detail of the stipulated
considerations, and particularly that of the Roman Catholic Pastor. The
jealousy of some may see in it a principle, not according with the
exemption of RELIGION from CIVIL power. In the Indian Treaty it will be
less noticed than in a President's speech.[4.]
FOOTNOTES:
[1.] For TJ's third annual message to Congress, Oct. 17, 1803, see Ford,
VIII, pp. 266-7)
[3.] TI's message announced the acquisition of territory by treaty from the
Kaskaskia Indians; see
Ford, VIII, pp. 269-70.
[4.] TJ accepted JM's suggestion to omit any discussion of Indian treaty
requirements to maintain a Roman Catholic priest, leaving the stipulations
in the treaty to "the competence of both
houses.... as soon as the senate shall have advised its ratification"; see
ibid.
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: James Madison to Thomas Jefferson, Washington, Oct.
1, 1803, Notes for annual message, Oct. 17, 1803: alterations and
additions, etc.[1.],
The Republic of Letters, the Correspondence between Thomas Jefferson and
James Madison, 1776-1826, Edited by James Morton Smith, Vol. II, 1790
-1804, W. W. Norton & Company, New York, London, (1995) pp 1297-98)
---------------------------------------------------
JUNE 3, 1811
"To the Baptist Churches on Neal's Greek on Black Creek, North Carolina I
have received, fellow-citizens, your address, approving my objection to the
Bill containing a grant of public land to the BAPTIST CHURCH at Salem
Meeting House, Mississippi Territory. Having always regarded the practical
distinction between RELIGION and CIVIL Government as essential to the
purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States,
I could not have other wise discharged my duty on the
occasion which presented itself"
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Letter to Baptist Churches in North Carolina, June
3, 1811. Letters And Other Writings of James Madison Fourth President Of
The United States In Four Volumes Published By the Order Of Congress,
Vol..II, J. B. Lippincott & Co., Philadelphia, (1865) pp 511-512)
-----------------------------------------------------------
MARCH 2, 1819
"The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated
hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions
with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of
the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly
increased by the total SEPARATION of the CHURCH from the STATE."
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Excert of a letter to Robert Walsh from James
Madison. MARCH 2, 1819 Letters and Other writings of James Madison, in
Four Volumes, Published by Order of Congress. VOL. III, J. B. Lippincott &
Co. Philadelphia, (1865), pp 121-126. James Madison on Religious Liberty,
Robert S.Alley, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, N.Y. (1985) pp 82-83)
----------------------------------------------------------
1817-1833
"Strongly guarded as is the SEPARATION between RELIGION and GOV'T in the
Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by
ECCLESIASTICAL Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents' already furnished
in their short history"
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Excerpt from Madison's Detached Memoranda. This
document was discovered in 1946 among the papers of William Cabell Rives, a
biographer of Madison. Scholars date these observations in Madison's hand
sometime between 1817 and 1832. The entire document was published by
Elizabeth Fleet in the William and Mary Quarterly of October 1946.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
JULY 10, 1822
"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation
between the ECCLESIASTICALand CIVIL matters, is of importance; and I have
no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done,
in showing that RELIGION and GOVERNMENT will both exist in greater purity
the less they are mixed together"
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Excerpt of letter to Edward Livingston from James
Madison, July 10, 1822. Letters and Other writings of James Madison, in
Four Volumes, Published by Order of Congress. VOL. III, J. B. Lippincott &
Co. Philadelphia, (1865), pp 273-276. James Madison on Religious Liberty,
Robert S.Alley, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, N.Y. (1985) pp 82-83)
--------------------------------------------------------------
SEPTEMBER 1833
"I must admit moreover that it may not be easy, in every possible case, to
trace the line of SEPARATION between the rights of RELIGION and the CIVIL
authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on
unessential points. The tendency to a usurpation on one side or the other
or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them will be best guarded
against by entire abstinence of the government from interference in any way
whatever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order and protecting
each SECT against trespasses on its legal rights by others".
(SOURCE OF INFORMATION: Letter written by James Madison to R
|
| |
| |
"The other Donald" <the_donald_13@yeehaw2.com> wrote:
:|
:|>
:|> "The other Donald" <the_donald_13@yeehaw2.com> wrote
:|>
:|> > Here is where the expression of "separation of church and
:|> > state" comes from.
:|>
:|> Not to get picky, but nobody is served by a debate centered on
:|> exactly when a particular phrase was coined. That's simply a
:|> diversion. The real question (and there is no debate, as the
:|> question was so thoroughly settled) was on the INTENT of the
:|> first amendment.
:|
:|But you are getting picky, and to the wrong person.
:|
:|As far as I understand, Jefferson 'wrote' the First Amendment, and then
:|explained its meaning when corresponding with the Danbury Baptists.
:|
Your understanding is seriously flawed.
Jefferson did not write the 3rd Amendment. (Yes it was the 3rd originally
as written and passed by the Congress. It became part of the 1st Amendment
when the Senate combined the 3rd (religious clauses) with the 4th (free
speech free press, etc ) into a combined 3rd amendment and the states
failed to ratify the 1st and 2nd amendments. Thus, the 3rd though 12th
amendments were re numbered 1st through 10th in Dec 1791 when they were
added to the Constitution.
Madison proposed a series of approx 17 articles to the house of Rep, on
June 8, 1789. It was from this list of approx 17 that they passed 12 and
sent those 12 to the states. Of these 12 we ended up with 10 Jefferson
played no role in that.
You might want to study the following
:|
:|>
:|> As I pointed out a few moments earlier, the INTENT of the
:|> first amendment was to establish a separation between church
:|> and state, and this WAS viewed as important (and even
:|> necessary) by the PEOPLE of the United States.
:|
:|My post was sent four hours before yours, and about forty minutes after the
:|thread originated.
:|
:|I am detecting a bit of unwarranted hostility in your posts. We're on the
:|same page, and fighting the same fight.
:|
:|I was merely replying to "Buckeye" that of all the quotes I've heard
:|attributed to the Founding Fathers, his message was the first time I'd heard
:|that partucular one for Madison.
:|
:|The underlying point was to take it with a grain of salt.
**********************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
"Dedicated to combatting 'history by sound bite'."
Now including a re-publication of Tom Peters
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE HOME PAGE
and
Audio links to Supreme Court oral arguments and
Speech by civil rights/constitutional lawyer and others.
This site is a member of the following web rings:
Freethought Ring--&--Freethought, Religion & Beliefs Ring
The First Amendment Ring--&--The Church-State Ring
American History WebRing--&--The History Ring
Let Freedom Ring--&--Religious Freedom Ring
Law Issues Ring--&--Legal Research Ring
**************************************************
|
| |
| |
"K.C." <kands00@hotmail.com> wrote:
:|"Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou
:|not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
:|Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except
:|it were given thee from above..." - John 19:10-11
:|
Ho hum, and what does this have to do with this thread troll?
:|buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:
:|> THE BOGUS QUOTE that is found all over the internet being offered
:|by
:|> separationists.
:|>
:|> The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from
:|
:|> these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe
:|in
:|> blood for centuries. ----James Madison, 1803, letter objecting to
:|the use
:|> of government land for churches, quoted from James A. Haught, ed.,
:|"2000
:|> Years of Disbelief"
**********************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
"Dedicated to combatting 'history by sound bite'."
Now including a re-publication of Tom Peters
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE HOME PAGE
and
Audio links to Supreme Court oral arguments and
Speech by civil rights/constitutional lawyer and others.
This site is a member of the following web rings:
Freethought Ring--&--Freethought, Religion & Beliefs Ring
The First Amendment Ring--&--The Church-State Ring
American History WebRing--&--The History Ring
Let Freedom Ring--&--Religious Freedom Ring
Law Issues Ring--&--Legal Research Ring
**************************************************
|
| |
| |
S. O. Damocles" <so@damocl.es> wrote:
I have to begin by asking is there anyone who has ever bothered to study
and learn any history in any of these newsgroups?
JOHN ADAMS: "This would be the best of all possible worlds,
if there were no religions in it."
(1) Un cited therefore worthless.
Study Guide to Quotes:
Quotes in General
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd7a.htm
Problematical Separationist Quotes
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd7b.htm
Problematical Religious Right Quotes And Arguments
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd7c.htm
******************************************************************************************8
(2) Study Guide to Quotes:
Quotes in General
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd7a.htm
(excerpt)
Taking the quote out of context
Another problem with quotes is that sometimes a person will select only a
portion of a statement. They will offer that quote to support a position
they are trying to advance. However, when the quote is placed back into its
proper context it takes on a different meaning, often times a totally
opposite meaning. Here is a classic example of that:
This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion
in it!!! -- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson
Taken out of context, this statement seems to have a certain meaning, but
here is the quote restored to its original context:
Twenty times, in the course of my late Reading, have I been upon the
point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible Worlds, if
there were no Religion in it. ! ! !" But in this exclamati[on] I should
have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without Religion this World
would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell.
So far from believing in the total and universal depravity of human Nature;
I believe there is no Individual totally depraved. The most abandoned
Scoundrel that ever existed, never Yet Wholly extinguished his Conscience,
and while Conscience remains there is some Religion. Popes, Jesuits and
Sorbonists and Inquisitors have some Conscience and some Religion. So had
Marius and Sylla, Caesar Cataline and Anthony, an Augustus had not much
more, let Virgil and Horace say what they will.
Excerpt of letter from John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817
-- John Adams, quoted from Charles Francis Adams, ed., Works of John Adams
(1856), vol. X, p. 254; The Adams Jefferson Letters, The Complete
Correspondence Between Thomas Jefferson and Abigail and John Adams, Edited
by Lester J. Cappon, University of North Carolina Press (1959, 1987) p.509
Put back into it's original paragraph, the meaning of that statement is
entirely different.
The solution to this problem is in doing your homework--not trusting carte
blanche that whoever is presenting the quote has done their homework. In
short, whenever possible check out the quote yourself. If by chance you
cannot do that, either don't use the quote or be up front and say you
cannot or did not verify the quote in its original context and therefore
will not vouch for it. The best solution is not to use it until you can
vouch for it.
****************************************************************************
JOHN ADAMS: Letters to F.A. Van Der Kamp 1809-1816. "How has it
happened that millions of myths, fables, legends and tales have been
blended with Jewish and Christian fables and myths and have made them
the most bloody religion that has ever existed? Filled with the sordid
and detestable purposes of superstition and fraud?"
Improperly cited, therefore basically worthless
***********************************************************************************
THOMAS JEFFERSON: Notes on Religion, passed in the Assembly of
Virginia, in the Year, 1786. "Millions of innocent men, women and
children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt,
tortured, fined, and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this
coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half
hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
Improperly cited.
The above comes from Jefferson's NOTES ON VIRGINIA which was a something he
wrote to be published in Europe in 1785. It was never passed by the
Virginia legislature since it was never written to be any kind of law.
**********************************************************************************************
THOMAS JEFFERSON: Letter to Thomas Whittemore, June 5, 1822:
"Christian creeds and doctrines, the clergy's own fatal inventions,
through all the ages has made of Christendom a slaughterhouse,
and divided it into sects of inextinguishable hatred for one another."
improperly cited
To (Unitarian) Rev. Whittemore, 5 June 1822 (HAW 7:245-6):
HAW = H.A. Washington, ed., The Writings of Thomas Jefferson
Source: The Writings of Thomas Jefferson: Being His Autobiography,
Correspondence, Reports, Messages, Addresses, and Other Writings, Official
and Private, H.A. Washington, ed., 1853-1854, 9 vols.
I would be very suspicious of this unless and until it is published in
Lipscomb and Bergh, ed., The Works of Thomas Jefferson
You ask my opinion on the items of doctrine in your catechism. I have never
permitted myself to meditate a specified creed. These formulas have been
the bane and ruin of the Christian church, its own fatal invention, which,
through so many ages, made of Christendom a slaughter-house, and at this
day divides it into casts of inextinguishable hatred to one another.
Witness the present internecine rage of all other sects against the
Unitarians. The religions of antiquity had no particular formulas of creed.
Those of the modern world none, except those of the religionists calling
themselves Christians, and even among these the Quakers have none. And
hence, alone, the harmony, the quiet, the brotherly affections, the
exemplary and unschismatising society of the Friends, and I hope the
Unitarians, will follow their happy example. With these sentiments of the
mischiefs ofcreeds and confessions of faith, I am sure you will excuse my
not giving opinions on the items of any particular one
*************************************************************************************
JAMES MADISON: "The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep
forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil
of Europe with blood for centuries."
bogus quote
THE BOGUS QUOTE that is found all over the internet being offered by
separationists.
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&selm=360vo01f6sqs34voioo3d32t0bvbsa9kuu%404ax.com
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GEORGE WASHINGTON--Treaty of Tripoli 1796: The government of the United
States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
Improperly attributed to G Washington. He never wrote it.
* Treaty of Tripoli, 1796: Little-Known U.S. Document Signed by
President Adams Proclaims America's Government Is Secular
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tripoli1.htm
* Joel Barlow And The Treaty With Tripoli
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/boston4.htm
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buckeye-ELO@nospam.net
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<buckeye-ELO@nospam.net> wrote
It appears he covered just about any combination of words
nope- in all instances, he was talking about one religion; Christianity. The
FF's would have had no reason to consider any other religion than
Christianity, and their concern would have been with which particular sect
would gain ascendency over it's competitors- the establishment of what kind
of Christian church would have been their concern.
The courts do not make the distinction that you do.
Then silly old them, hunh?
Chas
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buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:
"The other Donald" <the_donald_13@yeehaw2.com> wrote:
However, Jefferson did not created church state separation. The principle
of Church state separation was embodied in the unamended constitution long
before Jefferson ever received and answered a letter from the Danbury
Baptist association.
The idea of church and state seperation is not new with Jefferson for sure.
The importnace of the Danbury letter is that Jefferson here in reference to
the 1st spells out explicitly that the 1st does indeed mean that seperation
is part and parcel of the 1st. As Jefferson was one of those who was
indeed responsible for us having a 1st amendment, that is important in
in light of today's legal doctrine of original intent.
Cheerful Charlie
Study Guide: Separation of Church and State - Indepth
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd0.htm
The Establishment Clause
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/estclause.htm
* Fourteenth Amendment
http://candst.tripod.com/14thamend.htm
Some Thoughts on Religion and Law
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/bthot-lr.htm
A Simple Test
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/simptest.htm
After a quick scan it looks like a decent article except it doesn't cite
the quotes.
You wouldn't find the following quote there since it is bogus
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THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
"Dedicated to combatting 'history by sound bite'."
Now including a re-publication of Tom Peters
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE HOME PAGE
and
Audio links to Supreme Court oral arguments and
Speech by civil rights/constitutional lawyer and others.
This site is a member of the following web rings:
Freethought Ring--&--Freethought, Religion & Beliefs Ring
The First Amendment Ring--&--The Church-State Ring
American History WebRing--&--The History Ring
Let Freedom Ring--&--Religious Freedom Ring
Law Issues Ring--&--Legal Research Ring
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--
Kerry - two medals a silver and bronze star.
Bush? Well they don't give medals
for going AWOL, missing your medical and
getting grounded or falling off of a bar stool.
Kerry - a hero, Bush - a zero
Cheerful Charlie
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wbarwell <wbarwell@munnnged.mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
:|buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:
:|
:|> "The other Donald" <the_donald_13@yeehaw2.com> wrote:
:|>
:|>>:|
:|>>:|> THE BOGUS QUOTE that is found all over the internet being offered by
:|>>:|> separationists.
:|>>:|
:|>>:|Here is where the expression of "separation of church and state" comes
:|>>:|from. It was a letter exchange between Jefferson and the Danbury Baptist
:|>>:|Convention in 1802:
:|>>:|
:|>>:|".....that their legislature should make no law respecting an
:|>>:|establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,
:|>>:|thus building a wall of separation between church and state."
:|>>:|
:|>>:|http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html
:|>>:|
:|>
:|> However, Jefferson did not created church state separation. The principle
:|> of Church state separation was embodied in the unamended constitution long
:|> before Jefferson ever received and answered a letter from the Danbury
:|> Baptist association.
:|>
:|
:|
:|The idea of church and state seperation is not new with Jefferson for sure.
:|The importnace of the Danbury letter is that Jefferson here in reference to
:|the 1st spells out explicitly that the 1st does indeed mean that seperation
:|is part and parcel of the 1st. As Jefferson was one of those who was
:|indeed responsible for us having a 1st amendment, that is important in
:|in light of today's legal doctrine of original intent.
:|
:|Cheerful Charlie
:|
I believe I have replied to you in the past only to be ignored.
Everson v Bd of Ed was the USSC case that defined the Establishment Clause.
Here are the sources cited in that case by both the majority and the
dissent since all nice justices agreed on the rule of law they had just
stated
Kindly explain to the readers that overall importance of Jefferson's letter
in reply to the Danbury Baptists Association in defining the Establishment
Clause:
From: buckeye-ELO@nospam.net
Newsgroups:
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Subject: Re: (Mis) | | |
