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I know someone who was arrested and charged with felony forgery in the
second
degree for spending a $10 Silver Liberty (from www.norfed.org) at a local
movie
theater. He spent nearly 3 days in Jail even though the theater owner never
felt there
was an attempt to defraud him. The off duty Sherriff deputy working as a
security
guard even declaired that the Silver Liberty was not really made of silver.
The cashier accepted the Silver Liberty with no questions asked. It is a 1
troy oz.
of .999 fine silver with a $10 face value.
"In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect
savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe
store of value. If there were, the government would have to make
its holding illegal, as was done in the case of gold.... The
financial policy of the welfare state requires that there be no
way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.
"This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades
against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the 'hidden'
confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious
process. It stands as a protector of property rights."
- Alan Greenspan; "Gold and Economic Freedom"
Robert Miller
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Robert Miller wrote:
I know someone who was arrested and charged with felony forgery in
the
second
degree for spending a $10 Silver Liberty (from www.norfed.org) at a
local
movie
theater. He spent nearly 3 days in Jail even though the theater
owner never
felt there
was an attempt to defraud him. The off duty Sherriff deputy working
as a
security
guard even declaired that the Silver Liberty was not really made of
silver.
The cashier accepted the Silver Liberty with no questions asked. It
is a 1
troy oz.
of .999 fine silver with a $10 face value.
"In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect
savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe
store of value. If there were, the government would have to make
its holding illegal, as was done in the case of gold.... The
financial policy of the welfare state requires that there be no
way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.
"This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades
against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the 'hidden'
confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious
process. It stands as a protector of property rights."
- Alan Greenspan; "Gold and Economic Freedom"
Robert Miller
Sounds right to me. Pretending something that's not money is money will
get you in that kind of trouble. I hope the clerk is out of a job, too.
--
Chris Green
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Robert Miller wrote:
the
local
owner never
as a
silver.
is a 1
Sounds right to me. Pretending something that's not money is money will
get you in that kind of trouble. I hope the clerk is out of a job, too.
--
Chris Green
Check your legal dictionaries. You'll find that untill recently
money was clearly defined as silver or gold. Money is evidence
of wealth. Promisorry Notes i.e., Federal Reserve Notes are
evidence of debt and not wealth.
Legal Tender laws have always been associated with dishonest
even fraudulent paper and token money.
Familiar with HR 2779 The Honest Money Act Repeal of Legal
Tender laws?
If this person had said anything about the Silver Liberty being "Legal
Tender" then there would be a prima facia case for fraud.
If the government refuses to enforce or follow it's own laws, where
are the people to turn?
Robert Miller
"The Fact that our economical models at The Fed,
the best in the world, have been wrong for fourteen
straight quarters, does not mean they will not be
right in the fifteenth quarter"
Alan Greenspan
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Robert Miller wrote:
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Roy,
It is certainly confusing and I think fraudulent that this coin proclaims
itself to be worth $10. Whether the coin was accepted at face value or was
discounted to it's actual silver value is not clear. Having said that
though, the charge was forgery not fraud. I don't see enough information
here to understand the forgery charge.
Mr. Miller believes in this Norfed thing.
Dave M.
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Roy wrote:
Robert Miller wrote:
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Robert Miller wrote:
Check your legal dictionaries. You'll find that untill recently
money was clearly defined as silver or gold. Money is evidence
of wealth. Promisorry Notes i.e., Federal Reserve Notes are
evidence of debt and not wealth.
When a government regulates what is and is not money, money is what the
government says it is. Go back to your econ textbook and read about
"fiat money". There is nothing about fiat money that makes it something
that is not money. The fact that there are people idiot enough to
believe that the existence of money should be tied to an artificial
measure of wealth, such as gold or silver, does not make anything that
is not money into money and does not make anything that is money into
non-money.
Uttering, which is passing off something as money when it is not, was a
crime under common law and is still a crime, even if denominated
"forgery" or something else, everywhere worth discussing.
I will not discuss your false beliefs about what is and is not law,
other than to say they are all fabrications.
[snip]
If this person had said anything about the Silver Liberty being
"Legal
Tender" then there would be a prima facia case for fraud.
If the person presented the Silver Liberty with the intent that the
cashier believe it was currency, then there was forgery, uttering, or
some other crime committed.
If the government refuses to enforce or follow it's own laws, where
are the people to turn?
Sounds like the government properly enforced its laws in this case.
--
Chris Green
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David Martel wrote:
Roy,
It is certainly confusing and I think fraudulent that this coin
proclaims
itself to be worth $10. Whether the coin was accepted at face value
or was
discounted to it's actual silver value is not clear. Having said that
though, the charge was forgery not fraud. I don't see enough
information
here to understand the forgery charge.
Or possibly uttering, depending on the state. Some states distinguish
uttering and forgery: forgery being the act of creating a counterfeit
thing of value and uttering being merely the attempt to pass it off for
value.
--
Not a lawyer,
Chris Green
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Robert Miller wrote:
I know someone who was arrested and charged with felony forgery in the
second
degree for spending a $10 Silver Liberty (from www.norfed.org) at a local
movie
theater. He spent nearly 3 days in Jail even though the theater owner
never felt there
was an attempt to defraud him. The off duty Sherriff deputy working as a
security
guard even declaired that the Silver Liberty was not really made of
silver.
The cashier accepted the Silver Liberty with no questions asked. It is a
1 troy oz.
of .999 fine silver with a $10 face value.
That's not forgerry. Obviously the officer knows little of coins.
It could be seen as fraud if the coin was not minted by the United States
Treasury.
Franklin Mint has produced millions of coins which are purely for
collectors.
I have a couple of these and I sure as hell would not try to pass them off
as real money.
I've also got a few $10 casino coins. No way would I use them for real
money.
The norfed coin is not legal tender.
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Robert Miller wrote:
That's not forgerry. Obviously the officer knows little of coins.
It could be seen as fraud if the coin was not minted by the United States
Treasury.
Franklin Mint has produced millions of coins which are purely for
collectors.
I have a couple of these and I sure as hell would not try to pass them off
as real money.
I've also got a few $10 casino coins. No way would I use them for real
money.
The norfed coin is not legal tender.
It's a $10.00 coin.
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Andrew McSnerkity wrote:
It's a $10.00 coin.
So what? If I hand my $10 casion coin to pay a cashier for gas, I've just
committed fraud.
Only the United States Treasury has the backing and support of the
Government to print and sanction money in the USA.
The Norfed coins are not legal tender.
BTW, I have as yet to see one.
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On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 03:39:16 GMT, "Andrew McSnerkity" <abuse@isp.net>
wrote:
It's a $10.00 coin.
It pretends to be a $10.00 coin. It is worth whatever a willing party
will accept for it. But if you deceive a party into thinking it is
money, it is worth a trip to the pokey.
--
Chris Green
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a
security
guard even declaired that the Silver Liberty was not really made of
silver.
a
1 troy oz.
of .999 fine silver with a $10 face value.
It's a $10.00 coin.
You can not call it a "Coin" only governments can coin money. The Silver
Libertys are denominated in dollars because they are to traded in paralell
with Dollars. As the value of the Legal Tender dollars fall through
inflation.
If you do a google search on 'Legal Tender Laws" you can see that "Legal
Tender" and "Dishonest Money" seem to be synonimous with each other.
Something is only worth what someone will give you for it. This goes for
silver as it does with legal tender fiat currencies. With a national and
growing
network of people who will redeem NORFED's Silver Libertys and
Warehouse Receipts at face value it is easy to recover the face value in
legal tender.
In about 3 weeks after if silver closes over $7.50 per ounce spot price
all Silver Libertys will double in value to $20.00 and will be recalled
melted down to make $20.00 face value Silver Libertys. I have personally
spent hundreds into circulation and am happy to inform anybody if this
comes to pass.
Robert Miller
member of www.norfed.org
Bringing America back to value $1 at a time.
An almost hysterical antagonism toward the gold
standard is one issue which unites statists of
all persuasions. They seem to sense... that gold
and economic freedom are inseparable.
Alan Greenspan
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On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 03:39:16 GMT, "Andrew McSnerkity" <abuse@isp.net>
wrote:
It pretends to be a $10.00 coin. It is worth whatever a willing party
will accept for it. But if you deceive a party into thinking it is
money, it is worth a trip to the pokey.
--
Chris Green
A Federal Reserve Note also pretends to be a dollar.. I'd bet money that
you do not even know what a "Dollar" is. If you do, give me the dictionary
definition of a "Dollar". As you do, you'll see that "dollars" have not
been
circulated in a very long time.
Robert Miller
member of www.norfed.org
Bringing America back to value $1 at a time.
"The Fact that our economical models at The Fed,
the best in the world, have been wrong for fourteen
straight quarters, does not mean they will not be
right in the fifteenth quarter"
Alan Greenspan
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Check your legal dictionaries. You'll find that untill recently
money was clearly defined as silver or gold. Money is evidence
of wealth. Promisorry Notes i.e., Federal Reserve Notes are
evidence of debt and not wealth.
Legal Tender laws have always been associated with dishonest
even fraudulent paper and token money.
Familiar with HR 2779 The Honest Money Act Repeal of Legal
Tender laws?
If this person had said anything about the Silver Liberty being "Legal
Tender" then there would be a prima facia case for fraud.
If the government refuses to enforce or follow it's own laws, where
are the people to turn?
Why are you coming here pretending to want answers to questions when
what you really want to do is pontificate about your own nutty agenda?
Mez
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Check your legal dictionaries. You'll find that untill recently
money was clearly defined as silver or gold. Money is evidence
of wealth. Promisorry Notes i.e., Federal Reserve Notes are
evidence of debt and not wealth.
Legal Tender laws have always been associated with dishonest
even fraudulent paper and token money.
Familiar with HR 2779 The Honest Money Act Repeal of Legal
Tender laws?
If this person had said anything about the Silver Liberty being "Legal
Tender" then there would be a prima facia case for fraud.
If the government refuses to enforce or follow it's own laws, where
are the people to turn?
Why are you coming here pretending to want answers to questions when
what you really want to do is pontificate about your own nutty agenda?
Mez
Ah! This is the question as in your own words "nutty agenda" is a long
way from felony forgery with the intent to defraud.
There was a time not too long ago where an agenda to replace the
nations entire money supply with worthless paper as something
worse than a nutty agenda. In those days the people did not pay
interest on their money supply.
Today the Federal Reserve pays printing costs to the Treasury
Dept. of about 3 cents per Federal Reserve Note. A $100 FRN
costing only 3 cents and an interest rate of about $4.00 per year,
and the American people for excepting the privledge of discharging
their debts with FRN's take on the personal responcibility of the
entire national debt.
All of this and the average person doesn't even have a clue that
the Federal Reserve is a Privately owned bank largely owned
by foreign nationals with no love or loyalty of or for America.
You may feel free to correct any factual errors.
BTW
DOLLAR, money. A silver coin of the United States of the value of one
hundred cents, or tenth
art of an eagle.
2. It weighs four hundred and twelve and a half grains. Of one thousand
parts, nine hundred are of pure silver and one hundred of alloy. Act of
January 18, 1837, ss. 8 & 9, 4 Sharsw. Cont. of Story's L. U. S. 2523, 4;
Wright, R. 162.
Robert Miller
member of www.norfed.org
Bringing America back to value $1 at a time.
"In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect
savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe
store of value. If there were, the government would have to make
its holding illegal, as was done in the case of gold.... The
financial policy of the welfare state requires that there be no
way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.
"This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades
against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the 'hidden'
confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious
process. It stands as a protector of property rights."
- Alan Greenspan; "Gold and Economic Freedom"
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Ah! This is the question as in your own words "nutty agenda" is a long
way from felony forgery with the intent to defraud.
There was a time not too long ago where an agenda to replace the
nations entire money supply with worthless paper as something
worse than a nutty agenda. In those days the people did not pay
interest on their money supply.
Today the Federal Reserve pays printing costs to the Treasury
Dept. of about 3 cents per Federal Reserve Note. A $100 FRN
costing only 3 cents and an interest rate of about $4.00 per year,
and the American people for excepting the privledge of discharging
their debts with FRN's take on the personal responcibility of the
entire national debt.
All of this and the average person doesn't even have a clue that
the Federal Reserve is a Privately owned bank largely owned
by foreign nationals with no love or loyalty of or for America.
You may feel free to correct any factual errors.
BTW
DOLLAR, money. A silver coin of the United States of the value of one
hundred cents, or tenth
art of an eagle.
2. It weighs four hundred and twelve and a half grains. Of one thousand
parts, nine hundred are of pure silver and one hundred of alloy. Act of
January 18, 1837, ss. 8 & 9, 4 Sharsw. Cont. of Story's L. U. S. 2523, 4;
Wright, R. 162.
Robert Miller
member of www.norfed.org
Bringing America back to value $1 at a time.
"In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect
savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe
store of value. If there were, the government would have to make
its holding illegal, as was done in the case of gold.... The
financial policy of the welfare state requires that there be no
way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.
"This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades
against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the 'hidden'
confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious
process. It stands as a protector of property rights."
- Alan Greenspan; "Gold and Economic Freedom"
I mentioned your case to my Law Proffessor this morning. Seems like he's
been following NORFED's actions for some time.
He said what NORFED is trying to do is really very honorable but it
has too many enemies. It would literally turn this country upside down.
Basicly the courts do not operate under the Common Law because
there are no Dollars in circulation.
In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall
exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved,
and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any
Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the
common law.
Since there are no dollars, there is no common law. No violation
of the Constitution.
All based on the Golden Rule.
He who has the gold, makes the rules!
Good Luck! Doesn't sound like they have much of a case,
but I think you are fighting for a lost cause
Israel
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Israel Silverman wrote:
I mentioned your case to my Law Proffessor this morning. Seems like he's
been following NORFED's actions for some time.
He said what NORFED is trying to do is really very honorable but it
has too many enemies. It would literally turn this country upside down.
Basicly the courts do not operate under the Common Law because
there are no Dollars in circulation.
In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall
exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved,
and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any
Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the
common law.
Since there are no dollars, there is no common law. No violation
of the Constitution.
Your law professor is either baiting you, or is an idiot.
There are very few suits at common law, because most jurisdictions
have codified "common law" into statutes. Furthermore, that amendment
has been ruled not to be incorporated to the states, so it only
applies to Federal suits at common law.
"Dollars" DO exist.
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Israel Silverman wrote:
Your law professor is either baiting you, or is an idiot.
There are very few suits at common law, because most jurisdictions
have codified "common law" into statutes. Furthermore, that amendment
has been ruled not to be incorporated to the states, so it only
applies to Federal suits at common law.
"Dollars" DO exist.
Even I know they exist, but I have never seen a real dollar in circulation.
Ihave seen real dimes and nickels in circulation. Real dollars are to
valuable
to spend into circulation. Real dollars have not been minted since about
1865.
That is dollars with a dollars worth of Silver. Congress fell down on it's
obligation to regulate the value of the nations coinage. Since 1865 the
U.S.
Treasury has minted short-weight silver dollars.
I know you'll say I'm full of #@($ so I'll provide a citation that should be
acceptable. If you read the full document you'll see this was because
the United States, Euorpean, and Japanese nations were all minting
short-weight. If you have any doudt left that the Silver dollars were
short weight go to Ebay and look up Trade Dollar. These were minted
because China found the regular Silver dollar unacceptable in exchange
for goods. China was on the Silver Standard. Silver prices are in the
long term much more stable than gold prices.
72D CONGRESS SENATE DOCUMENT
1ST Session No. 57
HONEST AND DISHONEST SILVER MONEY
LECTURES HELD IN THE SCIENTIFIC CLUB
OF THE INSTITUTE FOR WORLD ECONOMY
AND MARITIME TRAFFIC AT THE UNIVER-
SITY OF KIEL, BY DR. GOTTFRIED KUNWALD
OF VIENNA, ON THE SUBJECT OF HONEST
AND DISHONEST SILVER MONEY
JANUARY 26 (calendar day, JANARY 28), 1932 - Referred to the
Committee on Printing
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON 1932
SD-72-1-VOL 22-55
{Except}
The "dishoardabilization" of silver, that is to say the spread of a
definitive recognition penetrating even the peoples of Asia that silver
is not a suitable measure of value, leaving it to serve only as metal
for working like any other, is bund to depress the price of silver
well below the price of nickel, the physical properties of which are
superior to those of silver. The present price of nickel is 1.3d. per
ounce (New York, 2.85 cents). If the price of silver fall, say to
1/2d. per ounce -- reasons are given below for the adoption of this
figure -- in other words to about 4 per cent of the present market
price of 13 1/2 (New York, 29.6 cents) per ounce, or about 2 per
centof the storing value of silver objects taken above, the loss to
the world on the value of all its accumulated silver -- coin and objects --
would amount to 4.6 billions of dollars. This loss of value is
approximately one-half the present value of the entire amount of
Germany's reparation payments for the 69 years of the Young Plan
(calculated at the rate of interest of the latter, viz, 5 1/2 per cent) by
which the world economy has been depressed and disturbed.
This loss of 4.6 billions of dollars with which the world in now
threatened at its most sensitive spot, i.e., its circulation, is of course
only a fraction of the economic losses which the devaluation of silver
would involve for the world economy. A wound in the heart of a
living organism has quite different results from a flesh wound of the
loss of 4.6 billions of dollars without so much as discussing the
necessity or inevitability of such a loss.
{end}
If the dollar is worth just 3 cents of it's value in 1917 when the
Federal Reserve was created. What is it worth compared to
the 1864 dollar? before the mintage of short-weight silver dollars.
Robert Miller
member of www.norfed.org
Bringing Ameica back to value $1 at a time.
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