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legality of hiring practices (LONG post; please read!!)



"Cal Varnsen"
12/18/2004 4:01:51 PM


Please allow me to preface this inquiry by stating that I am NOT an
attorney or a law student, nor is the individual I engaged in
conversation with either of these things. I have a bachelor's degree
that involved studying mass media law and through that class I gained
an understanding of the legal system etc, and my friend is working on a
master's program at Seton Hall (I point this out to illustrate that
he's not exactly a dummy either - perhaps a bit misinformed on the
topic, but we all are misinformed on *something*).
I had a rousing conversation with a friend this morning over the legal
ramifications of refusing employment to someone simply because of the
color of their skin. At the beginning of the conversation, he was 100%
positive that this was a perfectly legal practice, and I was equally
convinced it was not. By the end of the conversation he had essentially
conceded that it was illegal but our argument had shifted in another
semi-related direction by that point.
Obviously, the argument was rooted in a basis of facts - either the
practice as I explained it to him was legal or it was not. This made
for an exchange that, for the most part, was pretty fruitless since
neither of us could grab a book and point to a statute or precedent to
prove the other wrong. Nevertheless, as I mentioned, he eventually
conceded that maybe it was indeed illegal. Here's how I laid it out for
him.
In the United States, it is against the law to refuse employment to
someone based on their race, gender, age, religion, sexual orientation,
or handicap status. I also explained the important caveat that if any
of these concepts fall under legitimate job qualifications, then that
is a different story, but refusing someone employment based on any of
these aspects of a person's makeup is illegal. Violation of this is
known simply as discrimination in the workplace.
I was rather suprised when he insisted it wasn't, as I had always been
under the impression that it was common knowledge that these sorts of
things were against the law. He contended that it interfered with a
person's right of association - that anyone is free to "associate" with
anyone they please, and are not required to associate with someone they
wish not to associate with. He felt that this extended to individuals
who own and/or operate busineses, and the individuals who are in charge
of making such decisions. I stated that there is a distinction to be
drawn between how people construct their personal lives and how they
conduct themselves in the business world. These are two completely
separate worlds, legally speaking. Etc etc etc.
After battling back and forth over this for what seemed like a long
time, we moved on to some interesting hypothetical examples. Here's
where my questions come in (from this point on, I am assuming that I am
correct in my assertion that these hiring practices listed above are in
fact illegal; if they are NOT, by all means, correct me - in fact,
either way, I'd love someone to cite the statute or precedent that
determines its legaility/illegality):
1) Where is the distinction drawn between the business world and the
educational world? My friend brought up black universities and their
hiring practices (presumably they are staffed exclusively by black
professors?).
2) How about the Boy Scouts of America? I know it was determined that
they are not required to allow homosexuals in their organization
because they are a "private organization" - but they also employ
people. What constitutes a "private organization" from a legal
perspective of hiring people? Tax status? (I am for some reason
compelled to assume that the BSA is a non-profit organization and thus
tax-exempt). If this is the case, my "opponent's" employer (which
happens to be a former employer of mine), which also has tax-exempt
status, would fall under the same category, no? But they engage in
commerce, per se, while the BSA doesn't exactly - I guess. Does this
make a difference? (incidentally, this employer I am referring to is
the largest employer in my state and unquestionably is required to
adhere to lawful hiring practices referenced above. It's plastered all
over their HR offices.)
3) Where does nepotism come into this? Or does it at all? If a
caucasian boss hired an unqualified relative over a qualified black
person, would law have been broken? What if the employer genuinely had
nothing against blacks? What if he DID, but was going to hire the
relative anyway?
4) Is this essentially a "toothless law," as my friend put it? He feels
it's something that would be practically impossible to prove. I don't
think it's a cakewalk, but I certainly don't think it's practically
impossible either. I'm sure there has to be a case precedent in which
someone successfully sued an employer under these grounds.
5) Finally, things ended on a lighter note: what if you own a business
that manufactured those ridiculous costumes worn by Ku Klux Klan
members? How could you expect to do business with the KKK if you hired
blacks? Would that make being caucasian a legitimate job
characteristic? He argued yes, since hiring blacks would drastically
impede their ability to engage in commerce with their "target
customer." I disagree, because it's not about a company's ability to
engage in commerce, but rather the individual's ability to perform the
job. In other words, a black person is every bit as capable of
operating the machinery or whatever that makes the costumes as a white
person is, therefore "caucasianness" is not a required characteristic
of the person who fills the job.
Apologies for the length of this post. For those of you who made it
through the whole thing, please enlighten me and my friend.
Thanks,
CV
 
 
Bob Stock
12/19/2004 12:25:37 AM


On 18 Dec 2004 16:01:51 -0800, "Cal Varnsen" <biddybiddybop@email.com>
wrote:
[snip]
In the United States, it is against the law to refuse employment to
someone based on their race, gender, age, religion, sexual orientation,
or handicap status. I also explained the important caveat that if any
of these concepts fall under legitimate job qualifications, then that
is a different story, but refusing someone employment based on any of
these aspects of a person's makeup is illegal. Violation of this is
known simply as discrimination in the workplace.
[snip]
Here's a starting place for employment discrimination laws at the
federal level:
http://www.eeoc.gov/abouteeo/overview_laws.html
What you say above is true except for sexual orientation. Age
discrimination is only for people over 40.
Many states have stricter laws. Some states -- California, for
example -- prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation.
------------------------------
Bob Stock, California Attorney
Nothing I've said should be relied on as legal advice.
------------------------------
 
 
"Cal Varnsen"
12/18/2004 9:04:15 PM


Thank you very much. This is exactly the site I was looking for.
Any insight on nepotism? What about all-black universities employing
all black professors? Does this happen? Is it legal? Why?
thanks again-
CV
 
 
Christopher Green
12/19/2004 6:57:36 AM


On 18 Dec 2004 21:04:15 -0800, "Cal Varnsen" <biddybiddybop@email.com>
wrote:
Thank you very much. This is exactly the site I was looking for.
Any insight on nepotism? What about all-black universities employing
all black professors? Does this happen? Is it legal? Why?
thanks again-
CV
"All-black universities" are formally Historically Black Colleges and
Universities (HBCUs). There are some special regulations that apply to
them, but I don't think they enjoy an exception for affirmative action
in employment. However, I don't think too many white profs regard
employment at an HBCU as a good career move, so the faculties remain
largely black.
--
Chris Green
 
 
"McGyver"
12/19/2004 7:59:36 AM




"Cal Varnsen" <biddybiddybop@email.com> wrote in message
news:1103414511.433354.273410@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

<Snip>
- that anyone is free to "associate" with
anyone they please, and are not required to associate with
someone they
wish not to associate with. He felt that this extended to
individuals
who own and/or operate busineses, and the individuals who are in
charge
of making such decisions. I stated that there is a distinction
to be
drawn between how people construct their personal lives and how
they
conduct themselves in the business world. These are two
completely
separate worlds, legally speaking. Etc etc etc.
Constitutional provisions are sometimes in conflict with each
other. Congress passed laws against race discrimination, and
affirmative action laws. Those laws were upheld by the U.S.
Supreme Court even though they appear to be in conflict with the
freedom of association clause. These laws are proper and to some
extent required under the 13th, 14th, 15th amendments. I don't
remember the Court's reasoning, so I'll just say that the Court
decided what on the scope of the freedom of association clause.
<Snip>
1) Where is the distinction drawn between the business world and
the
educational world? My friend brought up black universities and
their
hiring practices (presumably they are staffed exclusively by
black
professors?).
There is no distinction. Predominately black universities do
indeed have white students and professors. But even if they
didn't, an all black faculty would be legal if the reason is a
lack of white applicants.
2) How about the Boy Scouts of America? I know it was determined
that
they are not required to allow homosexuals in their organization
because they are a "private organization" - but they also employ
people. What constitutes a "private organization" from a legal
perspective of hiring people? Tax status? (I am for some reason
compelled to assume that the BSA is a non-profit organization
and thus
tax-exempt).
<Snip>
I don't know how to define private, but private is indeed the
distinction. Tax status is not relevant.
3) Where does nepotism come into this? Or does it at all? If a
caucasian boss hired an unqualified relative over a qualified
black
person, would law have been broken?
<Snip>
None. The decision was based on family relationships, not race.
That's legal.
<Snip>
5) Finally, things ended on a lighter note: what if you own a
business
that manufactured those ridiculous costumes worn by Ku Klux Klan
members? How could you expect to do business with the KKK if you
hired
blacks? Would that make being caucasian a legitimate job
characteristic? He argued yes, since hiring blacks would
drastically
impede their ability to engage in commerce with their "target
customer." I disagree, because it's not about a company's
ability to
engage in commerce, but rather the individual's ability to
perform the
job. In other words, a black person is every bit as capable of
operating the machinery or whatever that makes the costumes as a
white
person is, therefore "caucasianness" is not a required
characteristic
of the person who fills the job.
Your argument is correct.
McGyver
 
 
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