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Alienation of affection and legal responsibilities for fiancee?



jcd1234@kattare.com
3/17/2005 5:35:39 AM


My fiancee and I broke up last year. Unfortunately, her parents are
continuing to harass me about paying up 100% of the deposits (none of
which were refunded). I talked to them about splitting the deposits a
while ago (not written contract, just an oral suggestion), but they
were not agreeable to this. If they hire an attorney to try to settle
the matter, what is the worst that could potentially happen to me?
Would I be potentially responsible for their legal expenses as well?
They also have not returned the engagement ring, and have acknowledged
that in their last letter to me as written proof. They claim it's a
separate transaction from the matter at hand and was a "gift" to my
ex-fiancee. What gives? Could they get to keep the ring and be
awarded full compensation? Concerning the circumstances, assuming
their relevant, my fiancee and I broke up because she got more
beligerent toward myself and my parents, and subsequently I grew apart
from her as a result (or vice versa). Point is, it seems like it's
both of our faults. What I wanted was to pay for half of expenses and
get my ring back. I would then sell the ring and consider it as close
to a wash as possible. My colleagues recommend to completely ignore
unless they do indeed get an attorney. Anyone else have any
interesting suggestions or have knowledge of similar scenarios?
State of PA is involved.
Thanks.
 
 
"McGyver"
3/17/2005 12:01:41 PM




<jcd1234@kattare.com> wrote in message
news:1111066539.087957.243490@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

My fiancee and I broke up last year. Unfortunately, her parents are
continuing to harass me about paying up 100% of the deposits (none of
which were refunded). I talked to them about splitting the deposits a
while ago (not written contract, just an oral suggestion), but they
were not agreeable to this. If they hire an attorney to try to settle
the matter, what is the worst that could potentially happen to me?
Would I be potentially responsible for their legal expenses as well?
They also have not returned the engagement ring, and have acknowledged
that in their last letter to me as written proof. They claim it's a
separate transaction from the matter at hand and was a "gift" to my
ex-fiancee. What gives? Could they get to keep the ring and be
awarded full compensation? Concerning the circumstances, assuming
their relevant, my fiancee and I broke up because she got more
beligerent toward myself and my parents, and subsequently I grew apart
from her as a result (or vice versa). Point is, it seems like it's
both of our faults. What I wanted was to pay for half of expenses and
get my ring back. I would then sell the ring and consider it as close
to a wash as possible. My colleagues recommend to completely ignore
unless they do indeed get an attorney. Anyone else have any
interesting suggestions or have knowledge of similar scenarios?
State of PA is involved.
Move on. You don't owe them anything, they don't owe you anything. The
ring was a gift. The deposits were their decisions. The cause of the
break-up is irrelevant. Fault is irrelevant. Etiquette (concerning the
ring) is irrelevant. This is 100% a contract law question, and nobody owes
anything to anyone. But that could change if you keep talking to them,
making offers, and making statements that a judge might someday interpret as
offers.
McGyver
 
 
elizgarrett@hotmail.com
3/17/2005 12:46:13 PM


Off the cuff...(and by that I mean that I am NOT giving legal advice as
I'm not licensed in PA)...my thoughts are as follows:
1. The ring and social tradition. Social tradition mandates that the
party that calls off the wedding gets the shaft here. Meaning that if
teh woman calls it off, she must return teh engagement ring, and if the
man calls it off, the woman keeps the ring. And please note that when
I refer to the party who "calls it off" I mean the guilty party. Some
might say that if a woman cheated, the man found out and the man
resultingly called it off, then the man called it off, but really the
woman did the calling off by cheating.
2. The ring and case law. A Pennsylvania court recently considered the
issue of conditional gifts given in contemplation of marriage and held
that the conditional gift of a down payment on property must be
returned by the recipient (donee) to the giving party (donor) when the
marriage was called off in Nicholson v. Johnston 855 A.2d 97, *101
(Pa.Super.,2004). You can read the full text of the opinion at
www.findlaw.com, but here is a relevant portion:
The conceptual basis of a cause of action based on the right to return
of gifts made on the condition of subsequent marriage was explained in
Ruehling v. Hornung, 98 Pa.Super. 535 (1930), subsequently endorsed in
Stanger v. Epler, 382 Pa. 411, 115 A.2d 197 (1955). The law of
conditional gifts creates a cause of action distinct from breach of
promise to marry suits. Its recognition in the common law is based upon
an implied condition theory. A gift given in contemplation of marriage,
such as an engagement ring, was not final but conditioned upon the
occurrence of the wedding. As such, it was subject to being returned to
the donor upon the failure of the condition subsequent.
3. The nonrefundable wedding-realted deposits. Your fiancee's parents
signed the contracts and I'm sure there was language stating the
deposits were nonrefundable in the contracts. Unless you were/are a
party to the contracts that required the deposits, I don't know how or
why you should have to indemnify the parents by making them whole. I
could not find any PA law on point here and I'm not a PA lawyer, so
this is just my opinion and not legal advice. I guess they could sue
you for tortious interference with the wedding-related contracts, but I
don't know if you can recover attorney's fees for torts in PA.
4. Strategy. I would tell the parents (in writing) that if they do not
cease their pattern of harassment, you will seek a restraining order.
Don't make any more offers to pay back the depoisits. Under Texas law,
if you sued the parents for declaratory relief, seeking a declaration
of the court that (1) the ring is your property and must be returned
and (2) you are not a party to the wedding-related contracts and
therefore have no liability, and you won, you could make the parents
reimburse your attorney's fees. But under PA law, I do not know.
If they threaten litigation again, tell them you will counterclaim for
intentional infliction of emotional distress and for recovery of the
ring. If they leave you alone, leave them alone and walk away without
the ring. You may not have the ring, but at least you'll know you
behaved honorably, even in the face of their bad behavior.
Ok, I have to get back to work now. Good luck to you. Don't give in
becuse the parents are being mean and you feel badly for calling the
wedding off. This is money, damnit.
By the way, I am happily and recetly-married woman lawyer. And if I my
marriage had been called off, I would have returned the engagement ring
to my husband and I would never have sought a refund from him of the
deposits my family and I paid for the wedding. That's just shameful
and petty behavior. Be glad you got out of this relationship without
getting married. Her family sound like nasty people.
 
 
"Falky foo"
3/18/2005 1:09:21 AM


That's perhaps the best legal response I've seen on this newsgroup.


<elizgarrett@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1111092373.161283.170420@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Off the cuff...(and by that I mean that I am NOT giving legal advice as
I'm not licensed in PA)...my thoughts are as follows:
1. The ring and social tradition. Social tradition mandates that the
party that calls off the wedding gets the shaft here. Meaning that if
teh woman calls it off, she must return teh engagement ring, and if the
man calls it off, the woman keeps the ring. And please note that when
I refer to the party who "calls it off" I mean the guilty party. Some
might say that if a woman cheated, the man found out and the man
resultingly called it off, then the man called it off, but really the
woman did the calling off by cheating.
2. The ring and case law. A Pennsylvania court recently considered the
issue of conditional gifts given in contemplation of marriage and held
that the conditional gift of a down payment on property must be
returned by the recipient (donee) to the giving party (donor) when the
marriage was called off in Nicholson v. Johnston 855 A.2d 97, *101
(Pa.Super.,2004). You can read the full text of the opinion at
www.findlaw.com, but here is a relevant portion:
The conceptual basis of a cause of action based on the right to return
of gifts made on the condition of subsequent marriage was explained in
Ruehling v. Hornung, 98 Pa.Super. 535 (1930), subsequently endorsed in
Stanger v. Epler, 382 Pa. 411, 115 A.2d 197 (1955). The law of
conditional gifts creates a cause of action distinct from breach of
promise to marry suits. Its recognition in the common law is based upon
an implied condition theory. A gift given in contemplation of marriage,
such as an engagement ring, was not final but conditioned upon the
occurrence of the wedding. As such, it was subject to being returned to
the donor upon the failure of the condition subsequent.
3. The nonrefundable wedding-realted deposits. Your fiancee's parents
signed the contracts and I'm sure there was language stating the
deposits were nonrefundable in the contracts. Unless you were/are a
party to the contracts that required the deposits, I don't know how or
why you should have to indemnify the parents by making them whole. I
could not find any PA law on point here and I'm not a PA lawyer, so
this is just my opinion and not legal advice. I guess they could sue
you for tortious interference with the wedding-related contracts, but I
don't know if you can recover attorney's fees for torts in PA.
4. Strategy. I would tell the parents (in writing) that if they do not
cease their pattern of harassment, you will seek a restraining order.
Don't make any more offers to pay back the depoisits. Under Texas law,
if you sued the parents for declaratory relief, seeking a declaration
of the court that (1) the ring is your property and must be returned
and (2) you are not a party to the wedding-related contracts and
therefore have no liability, and you won, you could make the parents
reimburse your attorney's fees. But under PA law, I do not know.
If they threaten litigation again, tell them you will counterclaim for
intentional infliction of emotional distress and for recovery of the
ring. If they leave you alone, leave them alone and walk away without
the ring. You may not have the ring, but at least you'll know you
behaved honorably, even in the face of their bad behavior.
Ok, I have to get back to work now. Good luck to you. Don't give in
becuse the parents are being mean and you feel badly for calling the
wedding off. This is money, damnit.
By the way, I am happily and recetly-married woman lawyer. And if I my
marriage had been called off, I would have returned the engagement ring
to my husband and I would never have sought a refund from him of the
deposits my family and I paid for the wedding. That's just shameful
and petty behavior. Be glad you got out of this relationship without
getting married. Her family sound like nasty people.
 
 
jcd1234@kattare.com
3/18/2005 7:31:39 AM


Thanks much. This was extremely helpful. All colleagues point in same
direction. I think the parents will waste a lot of time and effort
trying to recover what will ultimately fail (unless they get half). I
had originally considered going halfsies, but with the changing
requirements (the father originally requested I pay incidentals because
his daughter passed up a promotion to move with me) and baiting me with
the ring, then later saying it's a gift and a separate transaction (he
would have me sue her for the ring as a countersuit just so he can get
his money...wow!). Although the parents' state is PA, the locale of
myself and my ex-fiancee was DE when this break-up happened. Do you
think this will make a difference? When I get a lawyer in the event he
indeed does get one, I'll know for sure. For now, I'm just interested
in off the cuff opinions. Never been sued before. This is a very bad
way to start my defendant status. This isn't some $100 disputed phone
bill or anything, it's thousands of dollars!
elizgarrett@hotmail.com wrote:
Off the cuff...(and by that I mean that I am NOT giving legal advice
as
I'm not licensed in PA)...my thoughts are as follows:
1. The ring and social tradition. Social tradition mandates that
the
party that calls off the wedding gets the shaft here. Meaning that if
teh woman calls it off, she must return teh engagement ring, and if
the
man calls it off, the woman keeps the ring. And please note that
when
I refer to the party who "calls it off" I mean the guilty party.
Some
might say that if a woman cheated, the man found out and the man
resultingly called it off, then the man called it off, but really the
woman did the calling off by cheating.
2. The ring and case law. A Pennsylvania court recently considered
the
issue of conditional gifts given in contemplation of marriage and
held
that the conditional gift of a down payment on property must be
returned by the recipient (donee) to the giving party (donor) when
the
marriage was called off in Nicholson v. Johnston 855 A.2d 97, *101
(Pa.Super.,2004). You can read the full text of the opinion at
www.findlaw.com, but here is a relevant portion:
The conceptual basis of a cause of action based on the right to
return
of gifts made on the condition of subsequent marriage was explained
in
Ruehling v. Hornung, 98 Pa.Super. 535 (1930), subsequently endorsed
in
Stanger v. Epler, 382 Pa. 411, 115 A.2d 197 (1955). The law of
conditional gifts creates a cause of action distinct from breach of
promise to marry suits. Its recognition in the common law is based
upon
an implied condition theory. A gift given in contemplation of
marriage,
such as an engagement ring, was not final but conditioned upon the
occurrence of the wedding. As such, it was subject to being returned
to
the donor upon the failure of the condition subsequent.
3. The nonrefundable wedding-realted deposits. Your fiancee's
parents
signed the contracts and I'm sure there was language stating the
deposits were nonrefundable in the contracts. Unless you were/are a
party to the contracts that required the deposits, I don't know how
or
why you should have to indemnify the parents by making them whole. I
could not find any PA law on point here and I'm not a PA lawyer, so
this is just my opinion and not legal advice. I guess they could sue
you for tortious interference with the wedding-related contracts, but
I
don't know if you can recover attorney's fees for torts in PA.
4. Strategy. I would tell the parents (in writing) that if they do
not
cease their pattern of harassment, you will seek a restraining order.
Don't make any more offers to pay back the depoisits. Under Texas
law,
if you sued the parents for declaratory relief, seeking a declaration
of the court that (1) the ring is your property and must be returned
and (2) you are not a party to the wedding-related contracts and
therefore have no liability, and you won, you could make the parents
reimburse your attorney's fees. But under PA law, I do not know.
If they threaten litigation again, tell them you will counterclaim
for
intentional infliction of emotional distress and for recovery of the
ring. If they leave you alone, leave them alone and walk away
without
the ring. You may not have the ring, but at least you'll know you
behaved honorably, even in the face of their bad behavior.
Ok, I have to get back to work now. Good luck to you. Don't give in
becuse the parents are being mean and you feel badly for calling the
wedding off. This is money, damnit.
By the way, I am happily and recetly-married woman lawyer. And if I
my
marriage had been called off, I would have returned the engagement
ring
to my husband and I would never have sought a refund from him of the
deposits my family and I paid for the wedding. That's just shameful
and petty behavior. Be glad you got out of this relationship without
getting married. Her family sound like nasty people.
 
 
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