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According to the 12 steps advocated by Alcoholics Anonymous, alcoholics
are supposed to turn to God/A higher power for help in overcoming
alcoholism. Alcoholics are to believe that a higher power can restore
them to sanity, turn their wills and lives over to God, admit to God the
exact nature of their wrongs, ask God to remove their shortcomings, and
seek through prayer and meditation to improve their conscious contact
with God.
If an alcoholic happens to be an atheist, how would he apply the 12
Steps?
If an alcoholic atheist is COURT ORDERED to attend AA meetings, would
this constitute an infringement on their First Amendment right to
freedom of religion?
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If an alcoholic happens to be an atheist, how would he apply the 12
Steps?
Excellent question!
If an alcoholic atheist is COURT ORDERED to attend AA meetings, would
this constitute an infringement on their First Amendment right to
freedom of religion?
Another excellent question!
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Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
If an alcoholic happens to be an atheist, how would he apply the 12
Steps?
See my previous post on the subject - I'm an atheist and have had no
problems with the steps.
If an alcoholic atheist is COURT ORDERED to attend AA meetings, would
this constitute an infringement on their First Amendment right to
freedom of religion?
This is a tricky area. I personally am conflicted as to whether this
practice is morally right or even constitutional. On the other hand, I've
known many drunks over the years who came initially by court order and
stayed because the program was working for them.
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In news:47A6EE9A.6A863357@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us,
Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> typed:lugubriously
According to the 12 steps advocated by Alcoholics Anonymous,
alcoholics are supposed to turn to God/A higher power for help in
overcoming alcoholism. Alcoholics are to believe that a higher power
can restore them to sanity, turn their wills and lives over to God,
admit to God the exact nature of their wrongs, ask God to remove
their shortcomings, and seek through prayer and meditation to improve
their conscious contact with God.
If an alcoholic happens to be an atheist, how would he apply the 12
Steps?
If an alcoholic atheist is COURT ORDERED to attend AA meetings, would
this constitute an infringement on their First Amendment right to
freedom of religion?
Arf 12 anyone - I'm taking bets - starting now *
(\)
3 to 1 and floating points don;t count
Cheers
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According to the 12 steps advocated by Alcoholics Anonymous, alcoholics
are supposed to turn to God/A higher power for help in overcoming
alcoholism. Alcoholics are to believe that a higher power can restore
them to sanity, turn their wills and lives over to God, admit to God the
exact nature of their wrongs, ask God to remove their shortcomings, and
seek through prayer and meditation to improve their conscious contact
with God.
If an alcoholic happens to be an atheist, how would he apply the 12
Steps?
If an alcoholic atheist is COURT ORDERED to attend AA meetings, would
this constitute an infringement on their First Amendment right to
freedom of religion?
You need to do what all Christians do.
You need to (pretend) that a God exists.
It doesn't matter whether God is or isn't, just (try to believe) that there
is a God, no matter how ridiculous it seems.
If you are cured of alcoholism and God wasn't real then who cares if God is
imaginary?
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Dan from Boston wrote:
Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
See my previous post on the subject - I'm an atheist and have had no
problems with the steps.
How were you able to turn to a "Higher Power/God" without BELIEVING in God's
existence?
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Jamffer wrote:
You need to do what all Christians do.
You need to (pretend) that a God exists.
It doesn't matter whether God is or isn't, just (try to believe) that there
is a God, no matter how ridiculous it seems.
If you are cured of alcoholism and God wasn't real then who cares if God is
imaginary?
If you don't truly BELIEVE in God, how can you use faith in Him to cure your
alcoholism?
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On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 00:27:37 -0800, Tim Bruening
<tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
Dan from Boston wrote:
How were you able to turn to a "Higher Power/God" without BELIEVING in God's
existence?
Well if amongst the literature there is the suggestion one may use the
aa group for a higher power ...no one hopefully would take the 'group'
to be *god*...though a few in the *group* might take themselves to be
*god*. :)
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Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in
news:47A821F5.94384EA4@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us:
Jamffer wrote:
If you don't truly BELIEVE in God, how can you use faith in Him to
cure your alcoholism?
I am reminded of the story of Niels Bohr, who kept a good-luck charm, a
horseshoe, nailed over the door of his summer house. When one of his
guests teased him saying, "Niels, you're one of the foremost physicists
and rationalists of the century. Do you really believe in good luck
charms?" Bohr replied, "Of course, not. But I understand that it works
whether you believe it or not."
The point of turning oneself over to a "higher power" in aa is to realize
that ordinary rational thought, will power, and human planning are
impotent in the face of the compulsion to drink. In aa, an alcoholic
turns to some force outside himself: the God, a god, the innate good of
nature, the collective protection of those who love him. Whatever. If
*self*-reliance worked, the drinking alcoholic wouldn't still be
drinking.
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Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
Dan from Boston wrote:
How were you able to turn to a "Higher Power/God" without BELIEVING in
God's existence?
My higher power is the AA program. AA is NOT a religious program. It is
your choice. The psychological advantage, of course, is to get you to go
outside of yourself for help. Other atheist AAs want to add their takes on
this?
The proof of the program for us all is that it works. I've been sober
nearly 29 years, and I have AA friends who have as much as 50 years'
sobriety. We say that if you've got one day (even one hour) you're a
winner.
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On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 01:22:13 -0800, Deadrat <a@b.com> wrote:
Whatever. If *self*-reliance worked, the drinking alcoholic wouldn't
stillbe drinking.
Seems a horrible fallacy. You could as easily say, when a God-believer
drinks to excess, that if reliance on God works, the believer wouldn't
still be drinking.
srd
http://kanBARoo.blogspot.com
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"Stephen R. Diamond" <srdiamond@verizon.net> wrote in
news:op.t5135zoh4dpep3@jq0arm4.myhome.westell.com:
On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 01:22:13 -0800, Deadrat <a@b.com> wrote:
Seems a horrible fallacy.
I'm afraid I don't understand this. We know for a fact that self-reliance
doesn't work for the majority of drinking alcoholics. Booze is just too
strong for these folks. We also know for a fact that many alcoholics can't
establish a reliance on a higher power. However, if an alcoholic
establishes that reliance and follows the other 11 steps, then the outlook
for his sobriety improves significantly.
You could as easily say, when a God-believer
drinks to excess, that if reliance on God works, the believer wouldn't
still be drinking.
Well, I suppose you could. But what relevance would that have to the
sentence you responded to?
srd
http://kanBARoo.blogspot.com
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On 05 Feb 2008 13:25:40 GMT, danfromboston2@yahoo.com(Dan from Boston)
wrote:
We say that if you've got one day (even one hour) you're a
winner.
When used in the context of the individual comparing himself sober to
himself drunk I can by it. More often than not it's used out of
context.
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Jamffer wrote:
If you don't truly BELIEVE in God, how can you use faith in Him to cure
your
alcoholism?
Faith is really (self hypnosis) it has been proven in tests to create real
physical body changes as (imaginary fire on hand) creating blisters etc.
This same principle is the real effect of placebos, which most doctors know
about and use.
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Dan from Boston wrote:
How were you able to turn to a "Higher Power/God" without BELIEVING in
God's
existence?
I didn't have to BELIEVE, I simply had to be WILLING to believe. See the Big
Book, i.e. willingness is the key.
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"Jamffer" <jamf...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Faith is self hypnosis-- it's been proven
in tests to create real physical body changes
This same principle is the real effect of
placebos, which most doctors use.
What will the world be like
with 9 billion people?
..
..
--
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"Jamffer" <jamf...@hotmail.com> wrote:
What will the world be like
with 9 billion people?
It would be a LOT better with just, say, ONE billion people. However, I
don't see anyone volunteering to lessen the number.
.
.
--
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On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 18:51:14 -0600, The Nolalu Barn Owl wrote:
On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 17:28:12 -0500, Jamffer wrote:
How do you KNOW for *certain* that all Christians do this?
Hold it, maybe you are right. Who are the Christians?
And just what is a good catholic? ;-)
/me ducks
--
http://www.oretek.com
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On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 11:31:19 -0500, Jamffer wrote:
Faith is really (self hypnosis) it has been proven in tests to create real
physical body changes as (imaginary fire on hand) creating blisters etc.
This same principle is the real effect of placebos, which most doctors know
about and use.
If I believe in something and it works in spite of the lack of validity to
the belief, is there anything wrong with the delusional thought? Given
the alternatives, I think I'd continue to take the placebo and hope
someone doesn't tell me it's a sugar pill, unless I'm diabetic, of course.
--
http://www.oretek.com
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Tim Bruening wrote:
If an alcoholic atheist is COURT ORDERED to attend AA meetings, would
this constitute an infringement on their First Amendment right to
freedom of religion?
1. -> You can choose any god damn spiritual
leader/god of race, color, creed, sex. A glass, frog, or
door knob works too. AA don't care, neither does the courts.
2. -> Courts don't care. Period. It's cheaper than putting
your dumb ass in jail for 40 days for being stupid enough
to drive drunk.
(There are allot of folks in jail trying to find god now).
3. -> There is no such thing as an *atheist" . What a scape goat
bull #@($ excuse. If there were no gods .. there wouldn't be
a need for the word "atheist" .
Everyone wishes for a god when they are @$#*ing, dying, waiting
in traffic, or wishing .. to get out of jail or 25 AA meetings.
4. Get over thinking you are special, unique, different,
or better than anyone else. That is *spiritual growth*.
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Tim Bruening wrote:
If you don't truly BELIEVE in God, how can you use faith in Him to cure your
alcoholism?
I don't believe in any god either, but GODDAM you people are @$#*ing stupid!
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developer wrote:
Tim Bruening wrote:
I don't believe in any god either, but GODDAM you people are @$#*ing
stupid!
Who are "you people"?
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"Sean" <sean@fake.con> wrote in message news:LSCHj.3134$pb5.1400@edtnps89...
developer wrote:
Who are "you people"?
If you have to ask, then you are one of them.
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Reality_Check wrote:
"Sean" <sean@fake.con> wrote in message news:LSCHj.3134$pb5.1400@edtnps89...
If you have to ask, then you are one of them.
What an idiotic comment. Are you just posting here to gratify some
sniveling desire to be aggressive and insult people with impunity?
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